Insulation: I don't get it!

[user 6228]

It also makes sense to try to shed any water falling on the roof so that you're not losing latent heat of vapourisation.

Practically totally irrelevant. Only the temperature is important. Often better to have snow on the roof rather than even colder air flows, if you think about it.

you are correct in stll air but its rarely still around the outside a hive. Snow works by "stopping the air moving". wind on th wet roof cools by evapouration
.. its not just the physicist but as an all year round walking/climbing in Snowdonia. (mind boggling rainfall) being wet in a wind can kill humans.

 

[Finman]

you are correct in stll air but its rarely still around the outside a hive. Snow works by "stopping the air moving". wind on th wet roof cools by evapouration
.. its not just the physicist but as an all year round walking/climbing in Snowdonia. (mind boggling rainfall) being wet in a wind can kill humans.

You have an open meshfloor and you wonder water's cooling effect on roof?

I can say that roof is very good when it is raining. Water under roof is a bad thing.

My friend has 10 hives. 4 of his hives' roof are leaking.

.

 

[Excession]

Why would they come through it with less varroa? If the varroa are on the bees, the bees will be keeping their temperature up which will keep the varroa healthy surely? I can see some disease etc dying in a hive when temps drop where the bees arent clustering, as these parts will be colder.

Not agreeing or disagreeing with the original post, however I think extreme colds encourage a brood break which would effect the varroa brood cycle.

 

[user 6228]

Why would they come through it with less varroa? If the varroa are on the bees, the bees will be keeping their temperature up which will keep the varroa healthy surely? I can see some disease etc dying in a hive when temps drop where the bees arent clustering, as these parts will be colder.

insulated hives can have much higher humidity which varroa doesnt like.

 

[Ely]

Unhealthy levels of varroa should be dealt with before you enter winter. So to me that is irrelevant to the benefits/cons of insulation.

 

[Finman]

insulated hives can have much higher humidity which varroa doesnt like.

Insulated hives does not help with varroa. That is so simple.

Insulated hives should be warmer and then relative humidity is smaller than in simple wall hives. If insulated hive is colder than noninsuted, then you nurse your hive wrong way.

That humidity/varroa research was made once in tropical climate. That information has no practical value in common beekeeping.

 

[Hawklord]

Would a colony that is kept warmer through having more insulation, be less likely to stop rearing brood through winter? If so would that colony use up it's pollen stores too early?

 

[Finman]

.
When I read these posts here, what all harms insulation makes to British bees, it should not be possible that any colony can survive over winter in natural tree trunk.

Either it should not be possible that any colony can survive over winter in insulated hives.

The worst is of course that polyhives add bad (soft) genes in bees.

It is January now and you have out there +10C. We have about -20C.

As said, bees stop brood rearing because nature tells to bees that autumn and winter is coming. If colony does not react on these signs, it will die sooner or later.

It is too late to stop brood rearing if it has used its winter stores. Autumn can be long and warm, and still colony must know that they cannot forage during winter months. Bees must have "local genetic memory". Bee breeding has important role in wintering.

.

 

[user 6228]

Would a colony that is kept warmer through having more insulation, be less likely to stop rearing brood through winter? If so would that colony use up it's pollen stores too early?

Doesnt appear to be the case here with our bees. Bees evolved to take advantage of insulation.
here is a counter argument: because they can build up faster, they can afford to start more slowly and wait for spring before going full out. Colder bees have to commit sooner.

 

[jonnybeegood]

surely bees stop laying once the forage dwindles to a certain point? nothing to do with temperature? If bee's find there is no food coming in why would they want to breed knowing the young have no chance of survival & having to preserve food stores to ensure their own survival?
When people are talking about insulation here are they thinking of summer time too? Poly hives because of their insulation help keep bees cooler in summer which is a great plus, they don't need as many bees keeping brood up to temperature or keeping the hive cool by fanning, once a poly hive is up to temperature I would imagine it would hold that temp much easier than a wooden hive would? When midday sun is on a poly hive the bees aren't overheating, they can keep at their normal temp much easier, I imagine people with wooden hives have lost many bees in hot summers in full sun, especially with metal roofs which I would think are hot to touch on hot summer days, making it difficult for the bees to keep the hive cool enough.
I am a newbie but I cant see why there is even a discussion about insulation, it can only make things better for the bees.

 

[Hivemaker.]

I imagine people with wooden hives have lost many bees in hot summers in full sun

I keep my bees in wooden hives in full sun, i lose most of my bees during the summer on hot days, job to keep up with restocking the hives.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I imagine people with wooden hives have lost many bees in hot summers in full sun, especially with metal roofs

Probably the wax will melt as well - I'll have to remember that next time I go to Africa on a beekeeping project - the bees must have been making their combs out of something else when I was last out there - either that or the softwood hives we were using had better thermal proerties than all this kingspan rubbish DerekM bangs on about hey! maybe it's the creosote they use that keeps the hives cool!

I am a newbie

Never!

I keep my bees in wooden hives in full sun, i lose most of my bees during the summer on hot days, job to keep up with restocking the hives.

Better start importing some then - much more cost effective

 

[jonnybeegood]

Probably the wax will melt as well - I'll have to remember that next time I go to Africa on a beekeeping project - the bees must have been making their combs out of something else when I was last out there - either that or the softwood hives we were using had better thermal proerties than all this kingspan rubbish DerekM bangs on about hey! maybe it's the creosote they use that keeps the hives cool!



Never!



Better start importing some then - much more cost effective

am I wrong? oh sorry, you only have to say, theres enough sarky sods on here ive discovered already.

 

[oliver90owner]

Temperature, thermal capacity, insulation or conductivity values. All interconnected but different. We might get into reflectivity, too, but it seems our newbies (well some of them) would not understand the simple physical characteristics of hive materials. Roofs are for keeping the rain out; never yet seen any metal crownboards; always used ventilated roofs, etc, etc. Some don't even realise bees are kept in far hotter conditions than the UK climate?

 

[user 6228]

Insulated hives does not help with varroa. That is so simple.

Insulated hives should be warmer and then relative humidity is smaller than in simple wall hives. If insulated hive is colder than noninsuted, then you nurse your hive wrong way.

That humidity/varroa research was made once in tropical climate. That information has no practical value in common beekeeping.

I think you need to revisit the relationship of humidity and temperature when you have an insulated cavity with a heat and humidity source. Water vapour and heat accumulate at the top limited by the heat losses. Both the temperature and the relative humidity are limited by the insulation level.

That high humidity at high temperature is limited to the tropics, is the opinion of a Finn, is rather funny.

p.s. the research was done in the netherlands

 

[drstitson]

JBG - how do you think the southern european beekeeping industry has survived all these years?

 

[Finman]

I
That high humidity at high temperature is limited to the tropics, is the opinion of a Finn, is rather funny.

OK. You have humid climate in UK. Do not worry about varroa. Let it be.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

I imagine people with wooden hives have lost many bees in hot summers in full sun, especially with metal roofs which I would think are hot to touch on hot summer days, making it difficult for the bees to keep the hive cool enough.

Jonny, I don't think that's a general problem. Have a look for the photo someone posted recently here taken in Turkey. Heating a colony through the roof from above is harder than it is to lose heat from below in cold weather, so roof insulation is not a summer issue. Put very simply, it's the "heat rises" principle. An OMF does not on its own lead to major heat loss in cold temperatures for the same reason. Heating the roof heats the top of the air gap down to the crownboard. There is no convection and air is an extremely good insulator in those circumstances. Any ventilation through the roof loses hot air and further reduces the heat transmitted to the colony in summer (and increases heat losses in winter).

 

[jonnybeegood]

Jonny, I don't think that's a general problem. Have a look for the photo someone posted recently here taken in Turkey. Heating a colony through the roof from above is harder than it is to lose heat from below in cold weather, so roof insulation is not a summer issue. Put very simply, it's the "heat rises" principle. An OMF does not on its own lead to major heat loss in cold temperatures for the same reason. Heating the roof heats the top of the air gap down to the crownboard. There is no convection and air is an extremely good insulator in those circumstances. Any ventilation through the roof loses hot air and further reduces the heat transmitted to the colony in summer (and increases heat losses in winter).

I was summising that bees in warmer climates have adapted more to hot temps than ours, our climate is so up & down from one day to the next I thought they may find it harder in a hot summer when we don't get hot days that often. My point was they would find it easier to regulate the hive temp if it is well insulated, seems like common sense to me but hey ho im new to this. Sometimes it takes new blood to bring in new ideas/thoughts when old hats cant see the wood for the trees, or should that be bee's?

 

[jonnybeegood]

Temperature, thermal capacity, insulation or conductivity values. All interconnected but different. We might get into reflectivity, too, but it seems our newbies (well some of them) would not understand the simple physical characteristics of hive materials. Roofs are for keeping the rain out; never yet seen any metal crownboards; always used ventilated roofs, etc, etc. Some don't even realise bees are kept in far hotter conditions than the UK climate?

oliver if you are going to reply to my posts please don't be sarcastic as you have been on virtually every one of my threads. I sent you a couple of pm's last week, please read them, you might learn some new words.