Insulation depth

[JamesB]

It is amazing how much I've started to notice about my surroundings since starting to keep bees. I have never taken any of this into considerstion before. I can now see even more potential in bee keeping for schools. I know my children are more aware of the weather and wildlife since I started bee keeping, even my 4 year old told his grandma that the weather was too wet to have a look at the bees, and that wasps were upsetting mummys bees Funny what they take in when you think they're not listening.

You will get to know the times of year plants tend to flower as well

 

[Poly Hive]

Before I forget, 2" is a good thickness above a crown board.

PH

 

[Finman]

we talk about winter. Cold winter? What is that?

In south finland cold autum is 2-3 months when bees do not fly. Then we have snow time about 3,5 months. We wait that we have a white chrstmas but often it is not.

Then we have cold spring. It is 2 months when temp is at night near zero or under.

All this time insulation is useful. Question is not, are they alive. question is, how to make them do better.

 

[Juststarting]

too much thinking time - getting confused!

Obviously now I've treated for varroa and started autumn feeding I'm moving on to my next worry - best way to set up hive for overwintering.

I'm sure I'm making it more complicated than I need but I've tried to consider whats best and ended up going round in circles so any advice gratefully considered.

I have a poly hive (swienty - national) and will be single brood box this winter with omf.

I plan to feed some fondant mid winter, as with no experience worried about judging how quickly stores are being used.

So the question is do I overwinter with crownboard under roof? This would provide beespace above frames as otherwise the roof is flush on to frame top. Do bees need this beespace overwinter? But would it reduce benefits of polyroof and could it become a source of damp?

If I leave the CB on would this give me enough room under it to feed fondant - would need to cut it thinly!

Or should I use a small eke (could be made to any thickness you recommend) and just put this under roof/cb when feeding?

As i say too much time to worry whilst sitting in carparks waiting to pick up kids - so please direct me back to sanity!

 

[Finman]

.
To winter bees:

retrict the wintering space as small as possible.
The wintercluster is often same size as the brood area.

Feed combs full. Otherwise bees do not cap the combs.


Don.t disturb bees during winter.


Live in finland and i just now feed hives for winter. On average they consume 20 kg sugar per hive. It is enough up to May when willows start blooming

I never feed fondant

windy place is bad during winter.

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

Before I forget, 2" is a good thickness above a crown board.

PH

Thanks PH

My point is: Lincolnshire or Devon or Wiltshire are fortunate to have mild weather vis a vis the rest of the country. Your need of insulation is not high...


.

Agree entirely with your point madasafish, though not your geography. Even the souther reaches of Lincolnshire are on a latitudinal (if there is such a word) equivalent to sunny Staffs. As for the northern half - ever been to Cleethorpes with the wind whistling from the Urals?

 

[Adam]

Not over concerned with keeping them too snug, but want to give them as much assistance as I can to help maintain their temperature.

Too snug? I would be. Try reading Brothers Adams comments about the disadvantages of excessive insulation. When covering hives with insulation was popular in the US, he gave it a try. Although the colonies came through really strong, totally dry they then failed to thrive through the remainder of the following season. Just didn't give a good crop. I want bees that thrive, build up well and use a minimum of stores in the winter. I want a good brood break, both for the reasons above, and also I find it helps keep varroa levels down. I used to use insulation as I thought keeping bees warm in winter was "better" (I thought I was doing the bees a favour) but these days have left that old theory behind as, as far as I could tell there was no actual science to support it. (I don't mean conduction of heat through different materials - I mean quantified statistics or even anecdotal evidence of comparison of colonies with / without insulation - as far as I can tell, both Brother Adam, and all the beeks in the US when it was popular left that theory behind after a few seasons - at least except in Canada etc where it's frozen most of the winter)

(I accept where Finman is, the temperatures in Finland and snow for month after month is completely different) but I assume you are in the UK, where we have relatively less severe winters than Finman where other wrapping techniques are needed).

I'd be avoiding excessive insulation if you are only running Nationals at all costs. The risk of the high temperature causing brood rearing (and hence a dramatic increase in consumption of stores) would worry me that they would starve through your kindness of keeping them warm.

On your point of helping them maintain temperature, then yes, that is good. But that is no more than leaving them alone once clustered, stopping the woodpeckers disturbing them, ensuring they are free of nosema (as that disturbs cluster temperature) and possibly ensuring they have a fairly deep skirt around the stand to stop lots of draught.

The bees will maintain a survivable temperature all winter quite fine on their own. If you can get the external temperature cold enough to cease brood rearing, then they drop down the temperature even further, consuming less stores.

I do, though, seem to be a lonely voice!

Adam

 

[tonybloke]

Too snug? I would be. Try reading Brothers Adams comments about the disadvantages of excessive insulation. When covering hives with insulation was popular in the US, he gave it a try. Although the colonies came through really strong, totally dry they then failed to thrive through the remainder of the following season. Just didn't give a good crop. I want bees that thrive, build up well and use a minimum of stores in the winter. I want a good brood break, both for the reasons above, and also I find it helps keep varroa levels down. I used to use insulation as I thought keeping bees warm in winter was "better" (I thought I was doing the bees a favour) but these days have left that old theory behind as, as far as I could tell there was no actual science to support it. (I don't mean conduction of heat through different materials - I mean quantified statistics or even anecdotal evidence of comparison of colonies with / without insulation - as far as I can tell, both Brother Adam, and all the beeks in the US when it was popular left that theory behind after a few seasons - at least except in Canada etc where it's frozen most of the winter)

(I accept where Finman is, the temperatures in Finland and snow for month after month is completely different) but I assume you are in the UK, where we have relatively less severe winters than Finman where other wrapping techniques are needed).

I'd be avoiding excessive insulation if you are only running Nationals at all costs. The risk of the high temperature causing brood rearing (and hence a dramatic increase in consumption of stores) would worry me that they would starve through your kindness of keeping them warm.

On your point of helping them maintain temperature, then yes, that is good. But that is no more than leaving them alone once clustered, stopping the woodpeckers disturbing them, ensuring they are free of nosema (as that disturbs cluster temperature) and possibly ensuring they have a fairly deep skirt around the stand to stop lots of draught.

The bees will maintain a survivable temperature all winter quite fine on their own. If you can get the external temperature cold enough to cease brood rearing, then they drop down the temperature even further, consuming less stores.

I do, though, seem to be a lonely voice!

Adam

no insulation for my bee hives.

 

[kazmcc]

What would you all recommend for Manchester? We are on brood and a half, National with OMF. Should we just leave them to it? We will begin feeding after the Thymol treatment, which works out around the middle of October. Should we skirt the bottom of the hive? The hive is made of ply wood, which MM told me is warmer than cedar. They are a big colony.

 

[Finman]

.
Adam. When we use polyhives in finland, we do not wrap them at all.
In front of entrance we use windprotection and it too hints to plock the entrance ventilation.

When you look Denmark, polyhives are there very popular. My first polyboxes are from denmark.


What you talk here about noninsulation, it takes not much sence. Just beliefs.

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

Too snug? I would be.

Think you misunderstood my point Adam - I'm not concerned about making them too snug, for example I'm not planning any exterior cladding - but want to strike a balance between helping them to maintain their temperature in an exposed area, and a properly ventilated hive.

Of course, I don't know for certain if a layer of top insulation will be best in the long run, but its probably what I will try on both this winter, together with a "skirt" and possibly interior side insulation to fill any empty space for the smaller colony in my national (though this seems to be building up now so may not be necessary)

Its an interesting point you make though, and I certainly don't want to mollycoddle them

 

[Finman]

and a properly ventilated hive.

That is a good atitude

It does not help the hive if you ventilate the heat out, as we say to macpies

Of course, I don't know for certain if a layer of top insulation will be best in the long run,

Top insulation means:

* heat rise up and escapes most via top
* top insulation must be better than in sidewalls becaus condensation water rise on the coldesta surface. If ceiling surface is colder than sidewalls, it makes droplets over the cluster. ( look car windows)

Yes, what is long run?

I have long run top inner covers : 10 mm wood board and 70 mm plastic foam mattress. I keep that the year around.

.

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

Top insulation means:

* heat rise up and escapes most via top
* top insulation must be better than in sidewalls becaus condensation water rise on the coldesta surface. If ceiling surface is colder than sidewalls, it makes droplets over the cluster. ( look car windows)

Yes, what is long run?

I have long run top inner covers : 10 mm wood board and 70 mm plastic foam mattress. I keep that the year around.

.

Thanks Finam - what you say re top insulation makes sense to me.

"in long run" an English expression referring to the long term - in this case I was saying that as a new beekeeper I have less idea than most as to whether wintering with a top insulation will be better for my colonies not only through the winter but how it will affect them in the following season.

 

[Eyeman]

Nobody has mentioned using insultation and closing the floor late winter or early spring.
Around end February I close the OMF to encourage the start of brood rearing. Keep an eye on stores and they do seem to get off to a better start.
But I've not done comparative study to show it really makes any difference.

 

[Finman]

a top insulation will be better for my colonies not only through the winter but how it will affect them in the following season.

I think that affects nothing. Only which affects next season is the size of colony and the store of pollen. With that formula the colony starts its spring and a new season.

First, the numbers of nurser bees rules, what is the size of brood area.
When the new nurser bees emerge, then the heat economy of the hive rules, how big brood area bees are able to make. I have revieled this out with electrict bottom heating.

Electrict bottom heating helps up to day temp 17C. After that bees start to ventilate extra heat out. But the minimum is at night and day temp does not tell much how cold is at night.

You say that you have "warm country". I doupt that. Temperature varies and look the temps during rainy weathers and night. Day temp says nothing about the insulation need.

 

[Finman]

.
To where we need spring insulation and big colonies.


Winter is not so important to heat economy than the spring.
Spring build up: when the colony is ready to forage surplus?

When I try to harvest early summer yiled, only 2-box winterd hives has been able to forage so much that I am able to extract the honey.

Lets look at the math

One box hive and two box wintered hives make almost as much brood at fiorts. I think that it is numbers opf nurser bees which makes that.

Then the new nurser bees emerges and they are able to feed browing larvae number.

Soon the edges of cluster are ahead and the colony can rear only that size brood area which it can keep warm over night.

A bigger cluster can make a bigger brood area war.
We may calculate the volume of the "brood ball" .
Radius is 20 cm and what we have the volume 4·pii·r2,

radius 20 cm = volume 5 000
radius 15 cm = ..........2 800
radius 10 cm = ...........1 250

So, if the the colony is able to make 20 cm radius brooad area compared to 10 cm, one day four times more new bees emerge.

Then from laying to 2 months later the hive has 4 times more forager old bees .

I have seen this when I have nursed my bees with heating and pollen patty.

But nothing helps when " the biggest colonies swarms first" and the swarm escapes into skyes blue.

.

 

[oliver90owner]

4·pii·r2

That is surface area. Heat loss from brood nest will be dependent on this.

4/3*pi*r3^ is volume. Double the diameter (or radius) and volume is X8.

Regards, RAB

 

[Finman]

Thanks RAB
,

radius 20 cm = volume 19 000.-.......8 x
radius 15 cm = ..........8 000 .........2,4 x
radius 10 cm = ...........2 400 ........1 x


volume index is above

 

[oliver90owner]

Now that is sorted out, consider a spherical brood nest 20cm diameter in a National in early spring. It just does not happen. The nest will be a cylinder with spherical ends (whatever we call that shape), but smaller than 40cm diameter as the sides of the hive are not warm enough for the nest to extend that far (and the box is only effectively 20cm deep, anyway). Now try a polyhive and the brood will not only be near the hive wall but may be immediately adjacent.

That is what I find in my Dartingtons with side (and internal-end) insulation; the nest gets to those proportions quite easily before she spills over into a super.

In my view insulation counts for a lot. An early brood start means a strong foraging force ready for the OSR. I missed a lot of it this year as the bees were later starting and the OSR caught up quickly when the weather improved - but the bees were limited to the fixed brood cycle. I shall be searching out some spring rape, if at all possible, next year.

With a single brood National as an over-wintering unit, the brood is likely to be curtailed by lack of stores if the weather turns chilly, and will likely need spring feeding, if anywhere near a big broodnest, as there is insufficient stores in the hive to support the acceleration of uncapped brood numbers.

If the 14 x12s get a big brood nest I would not mind having to feed any time before 3 weeks to the OSR flow.

I know that any feed needed will be returned as honey, with interest, provided the OSR and the weather keep their side of the bargain! I usually avoid having to feed more than a quick starter (weak syrup) as I can usually find a few frames of stores to move around rather than resorting to serious sugar syrup feeding in the springtime.

Regards, RAB

 

[Stiffy]

Depends if he has an open mesh floor. Additionally, if the increased temperature results in brood rearing, then stores will be consumed quicker, and it may be you need to add more stores (an extra super) if on a regular national brood.

I like my bees to be nice and cold in winter. They thrive better in spring, they use less stores. Warm bees means brood, and brood means starvation if insufficient stores are provided.

To the OP, what size brood chamber are you using, have you an OMF and what makes you think warmer is better?

Adam

Again depends where in the UK you are, here in the far SW were it is generally 2-3degrees warmer I wouldnt want to try and stop them producing brood, in fact I doubt that I could. I like to factor this in and make sure they have sufficient stores and more (fondant) if needed.
As the general trend seems to be towards using Poly hives, the better insulation qualities would surely promote brood rearing during the atumn/winter and may be a factor in their apparent success.
Cheers
S