Insulation depth

[Adam]

Now we have switched to a different topic. Insulation in the spring, and early cluster size - which is determined by the number of bees which successfully overwintered - which in turn may depend on the success of the colony the previous season. A larger cluster at this time may determine the spring build up. Albeit other things like pollen availability also having a large contribution.

All this discussion about cluster size in spring in fine, but it certainly doesn't apply in winter - as the cluster dynamically increases and decreases in relation to temperature. The danger is if they are "warm", and have brood, and they cluster tighter that you have chilled brood - which starts to decay. Yet another reason you don't want them too warm in winter.

I do agree with the poster though about how the brood nest becomes distorted in a national. You can see the difference about what the bees use when they have more space such as in a commercial or 14 x 12 etc.

Adam

 

[Finman]

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You have really strange ideas Adam. If the colony do not keep a good winter rest, it has wrong genes. If you look, Uk is not only place to bees. They are in south and north and in east. They are in California where it may be 25C in December.

What about Australia?

In my hives bees start to make brood in February when it is the coldest time of the year. Perhaps -10 - -20C. But essential is that bees stop brooding at the end of August.

Too warm during winter? How it that possible. In Finland beekeepers are afraid too that it is too warm but hopeybees original home is in Africa.

Bees start a real brooding when they get pollen from nature.
Controversy they stop brooding when nature does not give any more pollen.

 

[Finman]

Now we have switched to a different topic. Insulation in the spring,
Adam

It is not different at all. The spring is more difficult time to bees than winter.
I have same bees and same hive material as in winter.

In spring food consumption rises hugely when bees rise tempaterute in the cluster from 23C to 32 C for they brooding. Poor insulation means high energy leak. They badly need a warm hive box in spring. I know that because I have done experiments with heating.
The biggest colonies get the best advantage from heating.

But I have lost some good colonies when I put them too tight into the box.
They run hot and they were not able to make a cluster.

 

[Adam]

It is not different at all. The spring is more difficult time to bees than winter.
I have same bees and same hive material as in winter.

In spring food consumption rises hugely when bees rise tempaterute in the cluster from 23C to 32 C for they brooding. Poor insulation means high energy leak. They badly need a warm hive box in spring. I know that because I have done experiments with heating.
The biggest colonies get the best advantage from heating.

But I have lost some good colonies when I put them too tight into the box.
They run hot and they were not able to make a cluster.

In spring, consumption rises as they now need to maintain a cluster temperature for brood rearing. (if they have reduced temperature when no brood present). My comments relate to whether brood rearing is maintained throughout the winter months. You have already indicate that in Finland brood rearing doesn't re-start until spring. In the UK, with a bit of insulation then brood rearing (and hence consumption of stores) can continue throughout the winter period. This causes a corresponding increase in consumption of stores.

Thats fine in warm places of the world, as flowers and trees provide forage all year round. In the UK though, forage is diminished and they make use of stores.

Winter and spring are different as in one situation brood rearing may or may not be taking place, in spring brood rearing will have started. The query relates to: if the outside temperature is on the knife edge of a temperature when brood rearing may take place throughtout winter, with insulation it may occur, and without insulation it might not occur. Which is better for bees?

In my opinion, better to leave the bees below the temperature at which brood rearing continues through the winter as it results in a large consumption of stores. This is exacerbated as the OP is using a British National Hive, which since it's introduction has been questioned for it's low total storage quantity never mind the storage needed to sustain a colony through winter whilst brood rearing is occuring.

Once spring has started, then yes, I can see that with an increased temperature and heat loss, and a reducing quantity of remaining stores that insulation may benefit them.

Adam

 

[Finman]

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Brood rearing depends on insulation? I have never seen that idea.

 

[Adam]

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Brood rearing depends on insulation? I have never seen that idea.

Of course. Brood rearing stops if it's cold enough. If the winter temperature is at the threshold at which they could support brood rearing, then insulation may well tip the balance.

Adam

 

[Finman]

Of course. Brood rearing stops if it's cold enough. If the winter temperature is at the threshold at which they could support brood rearing, then insulation may well tip the balance.

Adam

Not after mine 47 years experience.

The most important is that the stock is genetically adapted to local weather model and those has nothing to do with warm weather or insulated box.

And the beekeeper's job is to select that stock which survive in his circumtancies.

Adam, have you had insulated hives?

I have nursed both simple wall hives and insulated hives and long time.


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[birchdale]

Too snug? I would be. Try reading Brothers Adams comments about the disadvantages of excessive insulation. When covering hives with insulation was popular in the US, he gave it a try. Although the colonies came through really strong, totally dry they then failed to thrive through the remainder of the following season. Just didn't give a good crop. I want bees that thrive, build up well and use a minimum of stores in the winter. I want a good brood break, both for the reasons above, and also I find it helps keep varroa levels down. I used to use insulation as I thought keeping bees warm in winter was "better" (I thought I was doing the bees a favour) but these days have left that old theory behind as, as far as I could tell there was no actual science to support it. (I don't mean conduction of heat through different materials - I mean quantified statistics or even anecdotal evidence of comparison of colonies with / without insulation - as far as I can tell, both Brother Adam, and all the beeks in the US when it was popular left that theory behind after a few seasons - at least except in Canada etc where it's frozen most of the winter)

(I accept where Finman is, the temperatures in Finland and snow for month after month is completely different) but I assume you are in the UK, where we have relatively less severe winters than Finman where other wrapping techniques are needed).

I'd be avoiding excessive insulation if you are only running Nationals at all costs. The risk of the high temperature causing brood rearing (and hence a dramatic increase in consumption of stores) would worry me that they would starve through your kindness of keeping them warm.

On your point of helping them maintain temperature, then yes, that is good. But that is no more than leaving them alone once clustered, stopping the woodpeckers disturbing them, ensuring they are free of nosema (as that disturbs cluster temperature) and possibly ensuring they have a fairly deep skirt around the stand to stop lots of draught.

The bees will maintain a survivable temperature all winter quite fine on their own. If you can get the external temperature cold enough to cease brood rearing, then they drop down the temperature even further, consuming less stores.

I do, though, seem to be a lonely voice!

Adam

No insulation for my lot!

 

[madasafish]

Adam
Where in the Uk are you?

Sunny south or cold north or in between?

 

[Adam]

Adam, have you had insulated hives?
I have nursed both simple wall hives and insulated hives and long time.

Yes.

Adam

 

[Poly Hive]

Where are you located Adam please?

PH

 

[Finman]

Look at European temperatus. If the temperature tells, when winter is coming, all hives will be dead.

Nature has another ways to tell what time it is.

In Moscow it is now 27C
UK 17-19C
Finland 0-12C (not 15)
Norway 8-12C
Mediterranean costs 23-37C

http://ilmatieteenlaitos.fi/saa/saaulkom_2.html

 

[Adam]

Adam
Where in the Uk are you?

Sunny south or cold north or in between?

The south.

Adam

 

[madasafish]

The south.

Adam

Thanks.

So your comments are relevant to the warmest part of the UK... where drivers panic at 0.0001mm of snow

 

[Poly Hive]

I rather thought so with the statement that brooding went on all winter.

Which for some may be true though for most it is not.

I will return to this later.

PH

 

[Adam]

Thanks.

So your comments are relevant to the warmest part of the UK... where drivers panic at 0.0001mm of snow

Yes. Indeed they do. And what answer would you like to your statement?

On this occasion then I will rise to the bait....

Which is more likely to kill a colony of bees? A cold temperature, lots of insulation but no brood rearing. Or a warmer temperature, brood rearing and a high consumption of stores all throughout the winter?

If someone offered you the chance to take 10 colonies to get through the winter, and you could have any location in the UK, where would you place them? North, Middle or South?

Adam

 

[oliver90owner]

Which is more likely to kill a colony of bees? A cold temperature, lots of insulation but no brood rearing. Or a warmer temperature, brood rearing and a high consumption of stores all throughout the winter?

Neither, if they each have sufficient stores for their particular over-wintering 'mode'. Being dry (correctly ventilated) is far more important.

Brooding during the winter may not cease totally, but will be very much curtailed - just a few larvae for the most part of the early winter. It must be so, as nectar is required for normal bee larva nutrition, copious amounts of pollen are required for growth of those larvae and there will not be so much water available for brood food unless the bees are flying regularly. The cluster will be slowly moving, so the bees will not be so stupid (well not normally) as to use stores at such a rate that the brood is left to chill as they move towards new stores.

The second question, I would say, is of little worth in this context. You are where you are and you make the best arrangements for the welfare of your bees for that particular area.

RAB

 

[Finman]

About 6 years ago I bought queen from Italia in May. After that I have had every winter one hive or more which has brooded over winter. Before that it was very rare.

I got Italian genes which are not suitable to the altitude of 60 degree..

I have read much about wintering and like Oliver says, the insulation is not in the reason collection of stop brooding.

More often hives (here) stop brooding when they do not get food outside. It is they strategy to avoid starvation if weathers are bad.

Modern beekeeping have breeded strains which make brood what ever the wearther is. The colony produces more and more bees. Package bees are those. They are produced in south and then sold to north.

When we have here in Finland bought NZ queens, none of them has survived.

 

[Finman]

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Local genepool

When I change my genepool in my bee yard, it takes years to get rid off older genes. It must be so that older genepool colonies survive several years in empty houses and so on.

I had Elgons about 4 years ago. I have changed my queens origin twice and still elgon blood emerge to my hives. Elqon was a strain which started wintering in right time but in spring it did not mind what is the weather. It had all the time full speed in brooding as long as it had pollen stores.

When I move hives 15 km to east , I get Carniola genes, and much.

Swarm can move 10 km and next summer they donate they features to my virgins.

 

[Finman]

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Norton lives in "hot" area and I think that he has experience to say to "warm hives". He has "hot" poly nucs.