Import of NZ bees into UK

[Friar Tuck]

Plan B is operated by the Coop Membership Services, who seem to be one big marketing department

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Never that simple. Anyone who's ever worked for large multinationals and/or groups of companies will understand that. Large monolithic company structures are not as effective as small, autonomous companies operating under the corporate umbrella.

As I've said before, Plan B is operated by the Coop Membership Services, who seem to be one big marketing department and very much separate from Coop Farms who are farmers.

You might like to check with Coop Funeral Services what their position is on imported queens and use of neonicotinoids, since as a Coop company they will be intimately involved, surely? Heaven knows what's in embalming fluid these days!

I'm not even sure whether you're being serious here.
I've worked for plenty of large multinationals and I've never been in any doubt who my employer was.
The co-op has a board and a CEO, the fact that is made up of separate arms or sub divisions has no bearing on anything. It may be more democratic than other supermarkets but let's not pretend it's anything other than a large retailer (which is what I said it was in the first place).
If ITLD's contract is only with co=op farmers or whatever then why is Naomi whatever her name is sending e-mails to beekeepers? It's one organisation - the different arms talk to each other, work with each other and are involved in common projects etc. Let's move on from this attempt to cloud the issue.

 

[dilys]

As I've said before, Plan B is operated by the Coop Membership Services, who seem to be one big marketing department and very much separate from Coop Farms who are farmers.

I you trying to say that Membership Services have made such a big play about their farming methods without even consulting the farming wing of the organisation? That would make Plan B nothing more than cynical sales spin, an impression that the queen importation policy is making.

 

[chycarne]

Personally I dont give a darn about who did what and when. My concerns are
1 Biosecurity- this seems to be answered if it is only clean Queens coming in then all reasonable precautions have been taken I would like to ask for genetic testing against gene carried illnesess but we dont do that in thsi country so cannot impose it on imports.
2 If I am breeding up a line or three of bees that do a particular thing be it cleasning or superior honey collection or still fly at -10'c and thaw out the nectar I dont want some ++++ putting their bees next to me and messing up my attempts to get my best lines for a niche I want to exploit. This point has not been resolved and needs to be... Dont mess my plans for your own business lines. I am in Cornwall so I realise it will be a few years before you present a problem to me but your plans will affect what I want to do in the future and I will have to factor in your bees and their "foibles" into what I want to achieve. That irratates me. I make an effort not to affect others- other than those who chose to be interested in my bees I would expect you to do the same. that is why I still read and occaisionally respond. and why whilst I applaud your efforts on one hand - at least you are trying to do something on the other hand I am against due to it not being matched into local schemes better when it could have been.

 

[Skyhook]

Personally I dont give a darn about who did what and when. My concerns are

2 If I am breeding up a line or three of bees that do a particular thing be it cleasning or superior honey collection or still fly at -10'c and thaw out the nectar I dont want some ++++ putting their bees next to me and messing up my attempts to get my best lines for a niche I want to exploit. This point has not been resolved and needs to be...

There are people going on as though Swindon were some isolated hebridean island about to be overrun. I'm sorry, there must be dozens if not hundreds of beekeepers within a few miles of Ron, good and bad, registered and unregistered,quite likely including commercial operations, and most of them based on italians, carnolians and their crosses (yes, the 'mongrels' so beloved of many on here, and guess what, they're not all killer bees) If you want racial purity in british bees I'm afraid you're 100 years late... we have been reliant on imported genes since Isle of Wight disease.

While I appreciate that Ron is making a more serious attempt than most to do his bit for bees, I'm afraid this does not give him divine right over all the airspace in the region. If that were the case, we would all be hammering on each others doors demanding that only our choice of drones should fly when virgins are out- and we don't, because that's not how the world works. Whenever I've heard of similar breeding work, it is carried out on islands, mountain tops or similar where other bees can't live.

 

[DanBee]

I dont want some ++++ putting their bees next to me and messing up my attempts to get my best lines for a niche I want to exploit. This point has not been resolved and needs to be... Dont mess my plans for your own business lines... your plans will affect what I want to do in the future and I will have to factor in your bees and their "foibles" into what I want to achieve. That irratates me.

The answer is simple: unless you own the land within flying/mating radius, or have an agreement with the land owner for exclusive access to such land, then you cannot control who does what and where. No amount of getting agitated about how unfair it seems will alter the fact

This is why island mating stations are so popular - generally one land owner and lots of nothing all around. This is also why the mainland UK is generally poorly suited to breeding efforts. Even Br. Adam's "isolated mating apiary" wasn't, and Jon Atkinson's experiments with isolated mating on Lundy were thwarted by drones crossing from the mainland.

If you are to be the arbiter of what stocks are kept in a 10 mile radius around you, what qualifies you to set down the rules, and why shouldn't your neighbouring beekeepers have the same rights?

So a breeding effort is more valuable than migrating for a crop? What happens when there are two breeding efforts, each with subtly differing approaches, within mating range of each other. Maybe one lot are selecting based upon visible mite damage, one lot selecting based upon hygienic brood management, but ultimately each will frustrate the other, particularly when they want to flood the area with their drones. Both appear to be valid projects, so which has more right to be there and which should move out of the way?

(Skyhook - posting at the same time, apologies for duplication)

 

[madasafish]

Personally I dont give a darn about who did what and when. My concerns are
1 Biosecurity- this seems to be answered if it is only clean Queens coming in then all reasonable precautions have been taken I would like to ask for genetic testing against gene carried illnesess but we dont do that in thsi country so cannot impose it on imports.
2 If I am breeding up a line or three of bees that do a particular thing be it cleasning or superior honey collection or still fly at -10'c and thaw out the nectar I dont want some ++++ putting their bees next to me and messing up my attempts to get my best lines for a niche I want to exploit. This point has not been resolved and needs to be... Dont mess my plans for your own business lines. I am in Cornwall so I realise it will be a few years before you present a problem to me but your plans will affect what I want to do in the future and I will have to factor in your bees and their "foibles" into what I want to achieve. That irratates me. I make an effort not to affect others- other than those who chose to be interested in my bees I would expect you to do the same. that is why I still read and occaisionally respond. and why whilst I applaud your efforts on one hand - at least you are trying to do something on the other hand I am against due to it not being matched into local schemes better when it could have been.

The obvious solution is to buy up Cornwall.

Until you own it all, you have zero right to wish to impose your will on others...When you own it, you can do what you like...

 

[drumgerry]

According to the Co-op's reply on their Plan Bee facebook page the bulk of bees in the UK originate from southern Europe! Eh?!!

 

[Skyhook]

According to the Co-op's reply on their Plan Bee facebook page the bulk of bees in the UK originate from southern Europe! Eh?!!

Well, yes. As I said above, since IoW disease almost eradicated Amm from britain, this has been the case.

 

[drumgerry]

Ah yes the Bro Adam line - slightly different north of the border I think. Hopefully Polyhive will step in here.

And didn't the bees brought in to replace those killed off originate from a wider range of sources than Southern Europe - including the Netherlands?

 

[greatbritishhoney]

If you are to be the arbiter of what stocks are kept in a 10 mile radius around you, what qualifies you to set down the rules, and why shouldn't your neighbouring beekeepers have the same rights?

It's all about respect, dialogue, consultation and compromise. This should be the case whether it's two people keeping 1 hive each in neighbouring gardens or whether it's commerical bee farmers.
I think the point here is that the views or wishes of others were never even considered.

And, we must get past this theory that because it's already going on it's OK to add to the problem.

 

[dilys]

There are people going on as though Swindon were some isolated hebridean island about to be overrun. I'm sorry, there must be dozens if not hundreds of beekeepers within a few miles of Ron, good and bad, registered and unregistered,quite likely including commercial operations, and most of them based on italians, carnolians and their crosses (yes, the 'mongrels' so beloved of many on here, and guess what, they're not all killer bees) .

Mongrels are fine provided they belong to a stable population where beekeepers can open mate their virgins without having to kill many of the resulting colonies due to poor adaptation and aggressive traits. Unfortunately mongrels will never reach that happy state unless people stop injecting new blood all the time.

All our books, exams and general beekeeping culture preach artificial swarming and selecting from best stock. Other cultures regularly requeen using imported pure strains or races so care little about the local bees. The two philosophies just don't mix well. It would be ok to behave like Dan, Murray and the Co-op if the second culture prevailed but here it ruins the efforts of the vast majority and is simply anti-social and selfish.

Most British beekeepers are amateurs and more interested in the hobby and the bees than short term gain and exploitation so it's no wonder that so many people dislike what the Co-op is doing, especially as they claimed to be so supported until now.

 

[DanBee]

Ah yes the Bro Adam line - slightly different north of the border I think. Hopefully Polyhive will step in here.

And didn't the bees brought in to replace those killed off originate from a wider range of sources than Southern Europe - including the Netherlands?

Yes, lots of Ligustica because that was in vogue then with primitive* crossings and lines being offered for sale based upon docility and hybrid vigour. At the same time, a lot of dark French and Dutch bees were also imported. I seem to recall the Dutch ones were known as "black and tans" so clearly weren't completely dark!

The losses experienced were dramatic, and prolonged over a 12-15 year period across the country (and indeed Europe - Italy also reported colony losses with the same signs). Some attempts to restock would have been made by making splits, some by importing. There would have been a huge mixture of genes from British, French, Dutch and Italian stocks, with repeated losses year-on-year adding to the temptation to try bees from different sources for better success in subsequent years.

I would think it fair to say that the majority of British bees now have genes from several European strains, including the Italian strains (for there are several, not just the one most people know of), and this has been reinforced by a continued flow of strains into the country and by the wide usage of Buckfast stock reared here but with strong Continental genetics.


* because they didn't understand the concepts or implications of multiple matings, drone congregation areas, etc.

 

[DanBee]

Mongrels are fine provided they belong to a stable population where beekeepers can open mate their virgins without having to kill many of the resulting colonies due to poor adaptation and aggressive traits. Unfortunately mongrels will never reach that happy state unless people stop injecting new blood all the time.

We have bred from our best for forty years, never viewed pedigree as significant, always selected for health and local adaptation first, then productivity and temper next. We have included many swarms of all colours in our apiaries, and queens from a variety of sources, and continued to select the best. Swarms in particular we have viewed as good genetic stock, provided they are strong and early in the season.

All our books, exams and general beekeeping culture preach artificial swarming and selecting from best stock.

See above

It would be ok to behave like Dan, Murray and the Co-op if the second culture prevailed but here it ruins the efforts of the vast majority and is simply anti-social and selfish.

Most British beekeepers are amateurs and more interested in the hobby and the bees than short term gain and exploitation....

Please check your facts before assuming that I or anyone else practice a particular style of management, or have a particular ethos towards our bees

 

[Poly Hive]

Sorry Dilys but I disagree.

Most panic that they are queenless and buy the nearest queen they can obtain.

Where is that from? Usually abroad.

There is no tradition really of queen rearing in the amateur ranks in the UK

Before the forums started I honestly knew one other amateur person who had grafted.

ONE. Out of the dozens of beekeepers I knew. And two others who were pros.

Until raising queens is seen as normal and not a black art the wall is right there.

PH

 

[Into the lions den]

Dont mess my plans for your own business lines.

Any farmer or bee farmer or beekeeper could equally turn that philosophy back on you. In the case of a large grower, with a lot of land and 1000 acres of OSR needing pollinated.........are they REALLY supposed to forego that because someone a couple of miles away with a couple of hives does not want bees differing from his in the area? Should you have the right to mess with their plans for your personal or business reasons?Its a difficult subject, and if everyone right down to the couple of hive guys had a veto nothing would ever get done. (Even zero hive guys seem to have plenty to say.)

I am in Cornwall so I realise it will be a few years before you present a problem to me but your plans will affect what I want to do in the future and I will have to factor in your bees and their "foibles" into what I want to achieve.

You will be glad then that a large unit we were proposed to set up in partnership, centred on Leedstown, failed to proceed. Lack of cash was the issue btw, not worry about locals. It was a few seasons ago, and we got so far as identifying exactly where the bees would go. Then it fell through, but I also had cold feet on the thing by then.

I make an effort not to affect others- other than those who chose to be interested in my bees I would expect you to do the same. that is why I still read and occaisionally respond. and why whilst I applaud your efforts on one hand - at least you are trying to do something on the other hand I am against due to it not being matched into local schemes better when it could have been.

**

 

[greatbritishhoney]

I notice that despite ITLD telling us many times that no one at the co-op could answer our questions, we now have someone responding to all the comments on the Plan Bee Facebook page.
So, Murray, is this someone who knows what they are talking about or are they just cutting and pasting what you're telling them?
It's interesting that they couldn't respond directly until it threatened to interfere with the public perception of Plan Bee

 

[Poly Hive]

GBH? I honestly don't think it is fair to ask Murray to answer for the Co-op. He is not employed by them as I think he has made clear several times.

The only people who can talk for the Co-op are their spokes people which is fair?

PH

 

[Poly Hive]

Ah yes the BA line. Rubbish. Pure nonsense.

At the time BA was a novice in a monastery. what sort of information channel do you suppose he had at the time. I doubt if he even had a paper to read.

However the bees did die in considerable numbers of that there is no doubt.

Large numbers of packages from France and Holland were brought in, or so I was taught.

AMM is certainly alive and well in quite large areas of Scotland.

PH

 

[greatbritishhoney]

GBH? I honestly don't think it is fair to ask Murray to answer for the Co-op. He is not employed by them as I think he has made clear several times.

The only people who can talk for the Co-op are their spokes people which is fair?

PH

PH, I asked this because in his first or second post ITLD said that he would answer for the co-op and has repeatedly stuck to that position. It wass a genuine question - I'm interested who is answering on the Plan Bee page