Import of NZ bees into UK

[BKF Admin]

Well said Teemore.
We have to remember that not all members of the forum will agree.
It is the opinion of some forum members not a statement of all forum members.

 

[RoofTops]

This thread has reached the limits of credibility. Now we have a Facebook page where there is no option to "dislike" only agree with the narrow view that the importation of bees, which has been going on since the mid-19th Century, is somehow a bad thing.

The best bees I've ever come across were all imports.

I fear Somerford's ego has got the better of him or her.

 

[TBRNoTB]

Agony ? how wrong you are.

Somerford, Albeit I am on your side re importation, you are starting to come across a bit control freaky!! your starting to put RAB in the shade.

 

[RoseCottage]

I agree with the Teemore to be honest. I do not believe that those who wish to raise their concerns actually speak for the whole forum. There have been well over 17,000 readers of this thread and some 640 (when I have finished this post) written submissions. I do not think that it is an assumption that should or can be made that the majority (vast or otherwise) are in agreement with a single point of view.

We should be able to recognise the differences that exist and not be distressed by them, rather engage and co-exist.

Having said that it is right that if those who wish to express themselves and point out their concerns to the Co-Op (and I include myself) they should be able to do it in a co-ordinated manner so that the organisation doesn't just dismiss them as cranks.

I am not a crank (well not always - ask my wife...but not my daughter).

As for not creating a communication and not publishing it, again I feel a little uncomfortable about this view too. I am absolutely happy to engage with the Co-Op and anyone else on the subject and express why I am concerned about the likely (in my view) negative impacts, weaknesses, and conflicted ethics of this specific Co-Op enterprise.

Cloak and dagger belong on the Cludo board, I want to engage with the Co-Op management and have them realise the issues, understand the level of concern, and perhaps if we are lucky agree to some mitigations as a minimum. I certainly don't want Ron's efforts (which are publicly recognised and funded by the BBKA) to be derailed by either the selection of short-sighted, conflicted, goals by an organisation that claims it wants to genuinely improve the situation (again my view) or by ignorance of Ron's work.

By all means if anyone wants to PM me then I will be happy to help draw up a statement of concerns and assist in preparing a strategy of engagement but I will only do this if there is a genuine desire to represent ourselves in a professional manner.

I hope that people come forward with concerns and we can all move forward together. My request to ITLD about who we might contact were genuine, as were my sentiments in my earlier posts tonight.

All the best,
Sam

 

[Crg]

This thread has reached the limits of credibility. Now we have a Facebook page where there is no option to "dislike" only agree with the narrow view that the importation of bees, which has been going on since the mid-19th Century, is somehow a bad thing.

Being an armchair activist is much easier than actually trying to breed better and/or more queens.

Makes people feel good without having to do anything that will actually solve the underlying causes.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Being an armchair activist is much easier than actually trying to breed better and/or more queens.

Makes people feel good without having to do anything that will actually solve the underlying causes.

Quite agree Crg.

 

[BKF Admin]

I was all ready to boycott the Co-op tonight but I ran out of milk..

 

[RoseCottage]

Crg,
Your point is well made, sadly I don't yet have the knowledge or lifestyle that will allow me to make an active difference from breeding.

Although I believe this something that Ron is trying to do...


I believe, however, that my concerns are valid and therefore reserve the right to try and have them recognised. I don't intend to be rude or disrespectful to anyone (no animals or kids will be harmed in the making of this protest ).

It could be very useful for the Co-Op if they were to approach their preferred bee farmer and make it worth his while to either establish a small breeding programme or to support another one based in the UK. Again that could even be Ron...

Something perhaps to engage them on?

Your point was succinct...if only my replies were...

Sam

 

[Into the lions den]

Just back in.

Unlike some it seems I DO actually have a real life.lol...just back from the gym and swimming.

There are things going on in the background right now that I am not prepared to discuss in depth in open forum.

A telephone conversation this morning between myself and a senior figure in amateur beekeeping who is going to try to broker a compromise.

Somerford........you keeping trotting out the same alarmist stuff, state I do not answer questions when I do.....discard the actual figures and re-introduce the fictitious ones (not attributing the actual creation of them to you btw, no idea where they sprung from.). You HAVE to get your facts right if you are going to be taken even half seriously, and your stance right now will only harm your case. Vitriol is a turn-off to the reader, and your dealings with Dan are dripping in it. I do not think you actually want an answer other than a capitulation, and that you are not going to get.

Your vilification of a project that will provide a new local business integrating with the community and loal beekeeping groups, improve the local stock, and lessen the numbers of strange drones in the area seems at times to be perverse. Our new stock is selected for a number of traits, and varroa resistance is one. Not sure how good stock selected apparently for one trait alone will fare. I say apparently, as Ron has so far not replied to my messages so I do not know, other than from this forums focus on varroa biting, if they are selected for anything else.

This super hygienic trait has been selected for before in several experiments, also in the UK, so this scheme is not unique. There is a tendency for the stock to be non economic. I await more information.

However, things ARE happening in the background, started off before your campaign got going. Watch this space.

 

[Into the lions den]

It could be very useful for the Co-Op if they were to approach their preferred bee farmer and make it worth his while to either establish a small breeding programme or to support another one based in the UK. Again that could even be Ron...
Sam

You are not actually a million miles away from the stuff in the background here..................like I say.....wait and see the outcome. Life is full of compromises.

There is no real point in harangueing (sp???) Naomi or any others you can find....you will probably jut hear that the BBKA have been in touch and the issues are being looked at....and that is the truth.

Calm reflective and ACCURATE approaches will get some attention.

 

[Hombre]

Somerford,

In this issue, you do not represent me.

 

[Into the lions den]

Extrapolating Chrisbees figures on the Co-Op farms he uses for his apiaries, should Down Ampney support 300 colonies, even spread across the estate, it matters little whether they are in groups of 10,20,40 or 100 - they are still on the Estate. For ITLD/Danbee to claim otherwise is tantamount to pulling the wool over our eyes and taking local beekeepers as idoits.

Interesting assumption. You are very good at assumptions and taking extreme viewpoints. 300 colonies are BASED at Down Ampney. You can twist things as much as you like and you are still making assumptions. This one is yet again wrong.

Where will the rest be? Well thanks to the e-mailers (apparently two but I think they are the same person from writing style) who have told me 'they know the place and they (seemingly plural) will be coming round to torch the lot' if the project goes ahead, you will understand my reticence to give exact locations. Some reward for openness.

I have made this offer to some already. Send me a grid square or other vague location of your bees and I will say how far away the nearest of these bees are.

I bet no mention of the 300+ colonies will end up at the Heather...for fear of agravating the other local beekeepers there too. Yes I know what ITLD will say that many of the other BFarmers will have colonies from outside the UK, but it doesn't make it right.

When it comes to the heather we invariably negotiate exclusivity deals with landowners, then for the most part the bees will be away in the back of beyond behind locked gates a long way from anyone else. We have NO hostility to our heather operations in Scotland whatsoever, No reason it should be any worse in England/Wales and lots and lots of beekeepers both amateur and professional go to the heather. Its just a normal thing to do for lots of people. Despite what you would like to think, your view on the heather reflects only a tiny minority.

I quote from the BBKA again..."are against the import of queens and packages" END OF !! What part isn't clear there ? What part don't people understand ?

Its probably more an aspiration than anything else as there is no legal possibility of a ban, especially from the EU, which in reality is now our home market. Lots of the members will be using imported stock knowingly or otherwise. I would bet hundreds of members will actively purchase imported stock this spring. It is a position that reflects dominant opinion (perhaps, maybe just dominant voices) but is clearly not universally agreed with.

516
Nice point ITLD - though WHY any beekeepers would want a queen from your colonies at Down Ampney escapes me. OK Just go ahead guys and live with the consequences. By using queens (if they were available) from ITLD, you'd merely be perpetuating the whole Import issue !!

Just come and see the stock when it is there. I have invited you before but apparently there will be nothing to gain.....your words........you would then see just WHY some would want it.
532
GBH's point of a LACK OF CONSULTATION by the Co-Op with local Beekeepers is such a pertinent point ! I bet they wouldn't DARE now....(though I'd love to recieve a call...)

There is actually no-one to do that. Not a matter of not daring anyway. Read your own posts. Would there be any POINT? Ill informed, strident, badgering, threatening..........appetising recipe for consulting with! 537

540
Hivemaker's quote from the Co-Op's website...shame they have missed out the other possible cause of colony losses - that of imported bees !

Really? An assertion that from my experience has little basis in fact apart from certain dud stock..which this is not. Your claim, prove it. ( maybe it is another of those 'it is widely known' chestnuts)

543
Co-Op's temporary prohibition of neonicotinoid pesticides on own brand fresh produce..then in post 578, ITLD says that 90% of the produce at Tillington ends up in Tesco, who aren't exactly known for their eco-credentials...so does one extrapolate from that 'we don't use neonicotinoids on our fresh produce but if it is for other buyers, then it's open season' ??!

Gee you take the biscuit. Wild rash assertion with zero basis in fact. Again, prove what you say. I look forward to hearing from you how neonics are used on the produce sold to Tesco or any other buyer from Tillington. Fwiw, the reason Tillington produce goes to Tesco is because they pay more for it that Co-op retail do. Perhaps demonstrates the loose bound nature of the organistion better than most things do.

549
3124 units of bees coming into the country...at least...what a total disaster...and perhaps covering up the total losses UK beefarmers are experiencing every year.....

Who said they were for bee farmers? A significant amount of it is a reflection of the demand for nucs etc to the amateur sector.Many of the calls I have had are from small scale bekeepers, with under 20 hives, who have lost most, and sometimes all, of their bees. Not everyone thinks it a disaster, total or otherwise.

594
ITLD's suggestion that no one person in the Co-Op knows what is truely going on...If I was the Chief Executive I'd be very very concerned....

That is a twist on what I said and fine you know it.
So, all in all, some very positive comments, but also the smoke and mirrors continues..

Sigh. A bee farmer hiding under every bed, just waiting an opportunity to destroy their own trade............ reality check please...we do what we do to get it right, not screw it up. We HAVE to get it right. If not we do not survive. But perhaps that is your perfect outcome?

******

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Gosh, don't you people ever sleep??? I go to bed and there's about 5 more pages when I wake up!

OK, very important point - any communication with the co-op should only be on behalf of those that have PM'd to express an interest in doing so and have approved the final text. It will NOT represent the forum in any way.
The communication must be professional, calm, unemotive and reasonable. It must focus on what our concerns are and what we expect the co-op to do in response.
ITLD PM'd yesterday giving me some of the detail he has since posted here, so I am confident the co-op will soon make some kind of compromise. However, it's important that we are clear on what we want - I doubt they will make a groundbreaking offer.

DanBee, I see no problem in us posting our communication here AFTER we have sent it to the co-op.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Being an armchair activist is much easier than actually trying to breed better and/or more queens.

Makes people feel good without having to do anything that will actually solve the underlying causes.

Good point Crg, but surely that is exactly what we are trying to do - hence my suggestion that we should communicate with the co-op to try to encourage them to invest in british queen rearing.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

This thread has reached the limits of credibility. Now we have a Facebook page where there is no option to "dislike" only agree with the narrow view that the importation of bees, which has been going on since the mid-19th Century, is somehow a bad thing.

The best bees I've ever come across were all imports.

I fear Somerford's ego has got the better of him or her.

Rooftops, that's how Facebook works - if you;re in favour of bee imports then you can quite easily set up your own facebook page stating that you're in favour. Democracy in action!

 

[Tom Bick]

Teemore you are right a group email is ok but its individuals responding as individuals make change after all it’s a common cause.

Its people that make the CoOp what it is and I think will listen if plenty of people contact them they know that if one person is of the opinion that they must write or email their concerns then another 50 people think the same way it’s the way it is and they will know this.

Naomi Davis at the coop is I think a good contact to start with

If you have a concern over the planed bee farm no mater what it is and we all perhaps have different concerns email the CoOp and also drop a line to the news desk of what ever paper local or national you favour.

Face book is a great tool for opening up to the general public a debate and can if catches on move mountains so if you are passionate over this sign it, tell the neighbours, the children and the milkman if you wish.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Teemore you are right a group email is ok but its individuals responding as individuals make change after all it’s a common cause.

Its people that make the CoOp what it is and I think will listen if plenty of people contact them they know that if one person is of the opinion that they must write or email their concerns then another 50 people think the same way it’s the way it is and they will know this.

Naomi Davis at the coop is I think a good contact to start with

If you have a concern over the planed bee farm no mater what it is and we all perhaps have different concerns email the CoOp and also drop a line to the news desk of what ever paper local or national you favour.

Face book is a great tool for opening up to the general public a debate and can if catches on move mountains so if you are passionate over this sign it, tell the neighbours, the children and the milkman if you wish.

Tom, whilst I agree in principle, it's also true that 50 individuals are easier to ignore than a united group of 50 people. One letter signed by 50 people is often more powerful than 50 letters all saying the same thing (but often, dare I say, in a rambling way).

I would also sound a note of caution about getting the media involved. You can easily lose control of your cause when the media starts interpreting what it thinks you want to achieve. And let's not forget that the co-op has plenty of professionals whose job it is to deal with these kind of media problems.

 

[fox403]

lets see what ITLD has to offer,,, if them queens arnt getting imported thats me happy, trouble is its not just ITLD we need to get a ban on all imports now where do u start with that!

 

[greatbritishhoney]

lets see what ITLD has to offer,,, if them queens arnt getting imported thats me happy, trouble is its not just ITLD we need to get a ban on all imports now where do u start with that!

I'd be willing to bet my life savings (about £25 at the current time!) that whatever the co-op offer it will NOT be a change to the plan to import the queens. It is likely just to be a relocation of the project.

 

[Tom Bick]

Yes gbh we all have a different approach to things go for the letter get it approved by all concerned debate the wording and then send it.

It was mentioned a few posts back that it is easy to be a armchair activist start the debate over the letter but a good number of people have already been sending in letters and emails with their concerns for a good few days weeks now.

I mentioned a few posts back that this place is a talking shop and actions speak louder than words so debate the letter but perhaps also send individual letters.