Import of NZ bees into UK

[Somerford]

As I said before, it makes people feel good without having to do anything that will actually solve the underlying causes.

Anyone can rabble-raise on Facebook. One Welsh MP says "scrap the Red Arrows" and suddenly 60,000 people have joined a page "Stop the Red Arrows Being Disbanded".

They aren't being disbanded.

It's much more effective to get up off your chair and do something yourself, like get a group together to raise queens, or encourage your local club to do more queen raising, and generally improve the state of queen breeding in this country.

But then it actually involves doing something.

Expecting other people to do it for you, or just writing and complaining can be seen as lazy and ineffectual.
I know people with very busy lifestyles etc who make an effort with breeding better bees and getting more people involved.

CRG - yes, for some people you are right - they bang a gong, clash a cymbal and think they should get heard just for making a noise. Then there are others who not only make some noise, they actually want to change something.

I was lucky enough to hear Tim Smidt (the creator of the Eden Project) talk at a company conference a few months ago. Not everyone sees eye to eye with him, nor do many accept his unconventional approach to management or ways of getting things done. But he said something that really stuck with me.

It is easy to make noise on your own about something, but it is something else to start dreaming, and have a vision. It is often then that people knock you, for whatever reason, but at this point it is important to surround yourself with people who believe in the same things as you, and so from one person with a vision, you now have a team, a loose jumble of people all pushing in the same direction, and suddenly the impossible becomes possible, and the action of one individual becomes amplified and you start to achieve the things you and others believe in.

I'm no visionary, nor a great leader of people, but I have a real passion for what I do believe in, and from being the armchair activist in post 1 who didn't really know what the response would be, let alone the massive readership and volume of contributions, I see a pulling together of some like-minded individuals who are starting to spread the word above and beyond the pages and membership of the forum....

There are some very influential people on board now (I can't go into more for the time being) and I truely believe that, whether individuals like it or not, this might become more than just a single issue (Down Ampney 300) and a greater challenge to the effect of importing bees from abroad. If it also finally encourages a real push to UK queen breeding on a larger scale then that too can only be a good thing in my book.

thank you for contributing

regards

S

 

[Skyhook]

our association is embarking on a queen rearing programme for the first time this year with yours truly leading it.

Now that's more like a practical response- well done that man!

 

[chycarne]

All Responders and commentators
Thank you all for your responses, I was actually pleased to read them. I think therefore I made my point. We have no control on what happens around us we cant change it, but by using a forum like this people can talk. Perhaps if there was more talk about - ok we see what you are doing what we would like is and what can we do to either help or ask you to conside this that or the other. You all made very valid points and indeed demonstrated why people get frustrated and annoyed. when something is presented as inevitable hackles rise, when you Start out with we want to do this how can we improve it some will make great suggestions... Personally now I understand more about what is coming in I am less worried but still concerned, would I by a queen from you, hmmm probabaly not yet but I would be interested in seeing the results. thank you for the interest and time spent in responding- all, and also for this set of posts which has taught me some more intersting things history and ideas. am I converted, no, but at least I have seen what is happening around the UK and what other people are trying to do. Personally I dont care what happens near me so long as they are a caring keeper. yes I will be frustrated but then random selections also provide interesting beasties and after all I am doing the selecting. It isnt easy when you have plans that other disrupt but then talk and plan and work at it. I agree that there isnt much choice as the UKdoes not breeed enough of its own those of us that do are trying to make a difference and has been pointed out Money does stop projects- whilst sorry to see your plan in Leedstown not take off, I am also relieved. I can appreciate it would be frustrating but... anyway can we all now go on to what can be done and learn from this. How can both sets of aims be achieved to each groups satisfaction??? or is that a silly question.?????? and well done Skyhook!!!

 

[gavin]

Post 662 page 67

You will never get a ban. The country is not a bee museum, and the industry, at both amateur and professional level, will be in difficulties if the source of bees dries up, and even less of our honey requirement will be met from local produce. Bad news for the UK, good news for Argentina and China, even France and Spain.

On the other hand, if the govt declared now that there would be a permanent ban in, say, 5 years then a number of things would happen, all of which promote the sustainability of beekeeping in the UK which to me seems at present unsustainable. Folk would treasure their stocks in a way that they don't do currently when international trade can fix their problems. Folk would ensure that their standards of bee and bee disease management (as I'm sure is obvious I'm not getting at you or indeed anyone else here) were the very best. A UK queen raising industry would rise, maybe with a bit of help and funding here and there. People would keep types of bee that would be stable in their particular environments rather than temporary fixes, and keep types of bee that do fly and mate reliably in our climate. People would care more about the genetics of their bees. Forward-thinking intelligent beekeepers with resources - that's you Murray - would see the opportunities and rise to the challenges. UK beekeeping improves and becomes self-sufficient. The nation's stock of bees improves. Fewer new bee pathogens make it here.

Post 669 page 67

Dan's character assessment of Murray is spot on - although it is easy to see him as the big powerful neighbour to be viewed with suspicion, he certainly isn't driven by greed but is one of the more public spirited and open folk around. That sterilisation plant is one example. It is being set up as a true cooperative to be owned by and to serve the beekeeping community.

Post Page 68

On the sterilisation plant:

The scheme was my personal concept and I am still the one behind the sterilising part of it. It is a cooperative intended to be non profit making, and will accept frames and hive parts from all over the UK. If it goes well we may set up a branch in England too.

Gavin on here is also involved.

And he is honoured to be - even though my input has been trivial so far.

All this from someone who keeps his bees 2 km from one of Murray's sites and has a completely different attitude to the ideal bee.

G.

 

[Hombre]

Gavin,
As one of the people with less blisters on your fingers from typing than some LoL, can I ask a quick question, by way of a late night natural break?

The sterilisation plant: what sort of technology are we talking about, irradiation?

It sounds a very good idea; more so given the wake of the EFB/AFB outbreak of 2009.

 

[gavin]

Caustic soda. A box and frame sterilising and re-waxing service. The best way of clearing out residual infection from foulbrood and with benefits too for the general health and vigour of stocks of all types. Murray is the man to add details.

G.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Armchair activism was directed at anyone who is sitting around complaining about the situation of queen imports yet doing nothing to fix the underlying cause.

Writing on facebook pages is exactly what I would consider armchair activisim.
It's easy to rabble-raise on facebook, you don't have to present facts or a balanced view, nobody will check.

I notice you side step the fact that my entire business is based on my ethics.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Not a problem. I am assuming that would be Naomi. Actually just been sending some stuff over to her.

Thanks for clarifying that.

 

[Bee-Key-Pur]

I’m just wondering where some of you will draw the line?
What if you were able to keep the foreign bees out, even the healthy ones, will you be turning your efforts to keeping out people of colour?
It seems to me that the horse has already bolted with regards to keeping the British bee native only.

Brian

 

[greatbritishhoney]

I agree with Somerford about armchair activism. Virtually every significant movement in history has started with a few people sitting around complaining about the status quo. Eventually they get more people on board, publicise their cause and start taking solid action.
The French Revolution, The Suffragettes, Egypt started on Facebook!!).

I may be being overly optimistic here but hopefully what you have witnessed through this thread is a group of people coming together and pushing for change - with some engagement from the likes of Ron Hoskins, ITLD and the CO-OP that change could become reality. We could have an effective british queen breeding co-operative set up relatively quickly. If people are willing to talk to each other and compromise we could actually move forward here.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

What if you were able to keep the foreign bees out, even the healthy ones, will you be turning your efforts to keeping out people of colour?
Brian

I'm sorry but comments like that are not helpful. Think before you type.

 

[Tom Bick]

Quite agree gbh mo place for comments like that

I think I was the first to pen the term “armchair activist “ and this was not meant in any way to criticise any one in particular. The fact is in this modern world we are all armchair activists we can do more from the comfort of our chairs then ever before.

Its not like the Peoples Front Of Judea any more, and what did they ever do for us. No we can in the blink of an eye send a letter straight to the inbox of a chief exec, start a face book campaign to try and alert the general public to gain support and even have an open online dialogue with a beefarmer regarding a proposed beefarm.

On a separate note I for one have detected a growing ground swell of opinion over the last couple of years regarding the breeding of queens on small scale and I know at my association are seriously looking into this and I am very keen to get involved. If this is similar to the rest of the country it has to be for the good, and perhaps its this ground swell that has fuelled along with the work of Ron, the reaction we have seen and people are saying sorry but thats it enough its time to perhaps re think.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

I think the most important thing about queen rearing (if it is to have any effect on reducing imports) is that the resulting queens must be commercially available both to amateurs and commercial beefarmers like ITLD.
To do this you need to have an effective organisation with a functioning network.
I have had no experience of BIBBA but, from some of the comments by others on here, they are maybe not too great at actually supplying queens when needed. So, there are basically two options - all those with queen rearingexperience join BIBBA and help to improve the way they operate or they set up their own organisation.
Job done.....?

 

[Bee-Key-Pur]

Can you tell me what is helpful about most of the comments on this tread. If you see a problem and wish to do something about it, then get up and do something, sitting there and squawking about it day in and day out doesn't help solve the problem, raising the short fall in queens on the other hand would be helpful, try that...

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Can you tell me what is helpful about most of the comments on this tread. If you see a problem and wish to do something about it, then get up and do something, sitting there and squawking about it day in and day out doesn't help solve the problem, raising the short fall in queens on the other hand would be helpful, try that...

If you actually read the thread you will see that many of us (see post 602 for example) have been talking about the lack queens and what could be done about it. In fact I think my last post was on that very subject!
Your ludicrous comments implying racism don't add to the debate.

 

[Into the lions den]

Caustic soda. A box and frame sterilising and re-waxing service. The best way of clearing out residual infection from foulbrood and with benefits too for the general health and vigour of stocks of all types. Murray is the man to add details.G.

Yes, caustic soda.

However it is more than a one trick pony. You, or your transport arrive on site with your load of boxes of combs (it takes the whole comb, so no need for chopping out and scraping at base, the plant does it all for you). The boxes of combs are unloaded into an internal store with biosecurity (never know what might lurk in then thar combs).

Your transport then gets steam cleaned...very thoroughly.

Combs are deboxed and stacked in racks. Boxes go to be sterilised at this point to meet the frames at the other end.

Combs in racks go into tank 1.........boiling water...........and steam jets coming through the water melt everything out, even oldest blackest combs.

At this point all the slop (wax coccoons etc) are sluiced off and go into a steam wax press system, and nearly all the wax is recovered (beekeeper can take away later, or trade in).

Frames then go into a caustic boiling tank for 2 minutes only (it is enough, and any more softens the wood)

Then out and into another boiling water tank.

Finally a quick whish over with a steam cleaner, then returned to the boxes they came from. Boxes removed to a second store, also bio secure, and for cleaned gear only. Finally loaded back on the sterilised truck for taking away.

Can also be supplied back ready with wax installed for immediate use.

Everything carefully tagged for safe identification of owners items.

Full time staff wil be running all the admin, booking system etc.. Mainstream simple supplies will also be available, at reasonable prices. The existing polystyrene hives will also be on sale through this system. Bee feeding, etc etc.

Main users expected to be larger individual beekeepers and associations.

To encourage association membership and bee base registration there will be incentives to do so.............it will be cheaper to join and use the service than to use the service if not an association or beebase member.

Other services may follow.

 

[peteinwilts]

Can you tell me what is helpful about most of the comments on this tread. If you see a problem and wish to do something about it, then get up and do something, sitting there and squawking about it day in and day out doesn't help solve the problem, raising the short fall in queens on the other hand would be helpful, try that...

so... go out and do something about it? (like an activist!?)

surely 'squawking' and gaining support is a better first step if that way inclined.

I agree with doing something practical such as raising the shortfall of queens is useful, but it IS only mid-march. It is a bit early for that sort of thing!

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Yes, caustic soda.

However it is more than a one trick pony. You, or your transport arrive on site with your load of boxes of combs (it takes the whole comb, so no need for chopping out and scraping at base, the plant does it all for you). The boxes of combs are unloaded into an internal store with biosecurity (never know what might lurk in then thar combs).

Your transport then gets steam cleaned...very thoroughly.

Combs are deboxed and stacked in racks. Boxes go to be sterilised at this point to meet the frames at the other end.

Combs in racks go into tank 1.........boiling water...........and steam jets coming through the water melt everything out, even oldest blackest combs.

At this point all the slop (wax coccoons etc) are sluiced off and go into a steam wax press system, and nearly all the wax is recovered (beekeeper can take away later, or trade in).

Frames then go into a caustic boiling tank for 2 minutes only (it is enough, and any more softens the wood)

Then out and into another boiling water tank.

Finally a quick whish over with a steam cleaner, then returned to the boxes they came from. Boxes removed to a second store, also bio secure, and for cleaned gear only. Finally loaded back on the sterilised truck for taking away.

Can also be supplied back ready with wax installed for immediate use.

Everything carefully tagged for safe identification of owners items.

Full time staff wil be running all the admin, booking system etc.. Mainstream simple supplies will also be available, at reasonable prices. The existing polystyrene hives will also be on sale through this system. Bee feeding, etc etc.

Main users expected to be larger individual beekeepers and associations.

To encourage association membership and bee base registration there will be incentives to do so.............it will be cheaper to join and use the service than to use the service if not an association or beebase member.

Other services may follow.

Great idea. I think this will be a real success.

 

[Skyhook]

Main users expected to be larger individual beekeepers and associations.

To encourage association membership and bee base registration there will be incentives to do so.............it will be cheaper to join and use the service than to use the service if not an association or beebase member.

Other services may follow.

Sounds impressive! Presumably there is a minimum sensible quantity. If an association bring a combined load, will it be possible to trace each persons stuff through individually?

 

[Into the lions den]

I think the most important thing about queen rearing (if it is to have any effect on reducing imports) is that the resulting queens must be commercially available both to amateurs and commercial beefarmers like ITLD.
So, there are basically two options - all those with queen rearingexperience join BIBBA and help to improve the way they operate or they set up their own organisation.
Job done.....?

I am perfectly capable of raising all my own requirement of mated laying queens, and have done a couple of thousand in a year. It is not hard. What IS hard is geeting them effectively mated on any kind of sensible schedule in our climate.

I also could sell as many as I liked and those who have had them in the past liked them.

However.............

The professionals NEED definite dates, guaranteed deliveries, assured performance.................none of these available in the UK in anywhere near an acceptable manner. ( Last time I used a UK breeder it was a nightmare.....ordered and paid for 100 queens, for end of May delivery, I eventually recieved 18, the last of those in early Septemeber when there was nthing i could do with them.)

Health status. Who is going to issue the health certificates on shipped queens. these days I NEVER buy without a full and relaible health certificate, and have never seen a UK one other than a self issued one by a beekeeper (worth the paper it was on???). I certainly cannot provide one, and until the current foulbrood outbreak is over will never contemplate sending material outside our area.

OK, so we go down the certification route.........all grinds to a halt if AFB or EFB is found within 3 miles of your mating stations. Quote a bee inspector.'in most of England if you cannot find EFB in an area you are just not looking hard enough'. If this is true, and all reports indicate that in certain counties it possibly is true, then what price the guarantee on health status of UK sourced bees?

We graft every working day from early May to mid June...gearing up in a big way would be easy. Even 10,000 only require a jump in imagination..........but the costs, the losses due to bad weather, the risk of imperfect matings causing grumbles from the purchasers later. The list of obstacles goes on and on.........if it were really feasible it would have been done before now. Some HAVE tried.

Oh, and I doubt I would join BIBBA even if you pulled my toenails out.......

Another person with direct experienc of them described the situation there as 'Cliquish, parochial, introverted, backward looking'.....and a whole lot more besides.

Despite the fear of stirring up yet another hornets nest............

Up until last year we were advancing plans to establish a breeding station in the norther Pyrenees, actually not far from Lourdes, in a vast isolated area of scrub country. Our best queens would be sent there for grafting, and mating. 20 to 30 of our other best queens would head drone mother colonies in the same area. This would have provided UK dark bees back inot the country from late March onwards............... both queens and possibly nucs on brand new UK sized equipment. the AFB was found close by the breeding location......project shelved for now.........
fwiw, the areas natural bee population is A.m.m.