Hygienic bees beating varroa - a myth?

[Erichalfbee]

Thanks Tremyfro, B+ and pargyle. The folk who people this forum are largely forward thinking and receptive to furthering their knowledge about bees. That's why they're here. I like to think I might be one of them. It's easy to get disheartened and feel that it's impossible for individual hobby beekeepers to make much difference especially when you talk to fellow association beekeepers who just throw their bees in a box, treat twice a year, take their honey and have busy surviving colonies the following spring without much thought about it. It's an expensive loss for me. One I will definitely have to hide from him outdoors. I have ordered a nuc from Maisie and a package from Chris B. I have a lot of beekeepers around me so breeding from these survivors will be hit and miss. One colony is a cast that I caught the other is headed by one of HM's queens.

 

[pargyle]

] especially when you talk to fellow association beekeepers who just throw their bees in a box, treat twice a year, take their honey and have busy surviving colonies the following spring without much thought about it.

Don't believe everything you hear from these people ... it takes a degree of confidence to admit that you have lost colonies .. not everyone can cope with it - trouble is, in beekeeping circles, colony loss is often considered a failure. The feelings of personal guilt when you see dead bees when the box is opened - even when they are someone else's - are really hard on the beekeeper. Human nature being what it is a lot of people tend to suppress these feelings by just not admitting to others ~ and indirectly to themselves ~ that it happened.

So .. bees die, they do in the wild, they do when you treat them, they do when you don't treat them, they do when you have done everything you think is possible to give them a good home .. accepting this and being open and honest about it, IMO, is good beekeeping. It's like swarming - I know beekeepers who claim their bees NEVER swarm ... yeh and pigs fly !!

 

[beeno]

Hi EricA,
As a conciliation I treated my 'problem colony' with MAQS first week in September, Thymol 3rd week in October, plus OA early December, but it still died. All the symptoms of PMS, but perhaps she was not very well mated either? I was glad to get rid as I spent all summer nursing them as they came out badly from the winter and did not give me any honey. I won't do that again!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I treated my 'problem colony' with MAQS first week in September, Thymol 3rd week in October, plus OA early December, but it still died.

No wonder!!

 

[user 6228]

There more that could be done to reduce the effect of Type A DWV.

Spacing hives at least 6 metre intervals,
Better quarantining of colonies before introduction
Lower stress hives (lower heat & water vapour loss )

 

[Erichalfbee]

Hey JBM
Are you getting that eye done today?
I seem to remember it was around now....best of luck

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Hey JBM
Are you getting that eye done today?
I seem to remember it was around now....best of luck

Had it done Monday morning - bit more involved this time (he let the 'apprentice' have a go and he took ages!!!!) so far so good balanced eyesight now although they are still retuning themselves which is a bit odd.
Didn't want to risk driving yesterday so Redwood picked me up to go to DerekM's talk. Noticed on the way back though that all the driving glare has gone.
However I am now quite long sighted so may need beekeeping glasses as well as reading glasses although I put some frames together this afternoon with no difficulty or fumbling around at all - have to have a long chat with my optician before long

 

[Erichalfbee]

Glad it went well.....ish

I put some frames together this afternoon with no difficulty or fumbling around at all -

I bet you could do that with your eyes shut

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Thanks Tremyfro, B+ and pargyle. The folk who people this forum are largely forward thinking and receptive to furthering their knowledge about bees. That's why they're here. I like to think I might be one of them. It's easy to get disheartened and feel that it's impossible for individual hobby beekeepers to make much difference especially when you talk to fellow association beekeepers who just throw their bees in a box, treat twice a year, take their honey and have busy surviving colonies the following spring without much thought about it. It's an expensive loss for me. One I will definitely have to hide from him outdoors. I have ordered a nuc from Maisie and a package from Chris B. I have a lot of beekeepers around me so breeding from these survivors will be hit and miss. One colony is a cast that I caught the other is headed by one of HM's queens.

Erica

We've discussed on this forum the research done on Ron Hoskins bees in Swindon but another paper was published by another member of the MBA team - http://www.nature.com/ismej/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ismej2015178a.html the abstract of which states:

Treatment of emerging RNA viruses is hampered by the high mutation and replication rates that enable these viruses to operate as a quasispecies. Declining honey bee populations have been attributed to the ectoparasitic mite Varroa destructor and its affiliation with Deformed Wing Virus (DWV). In the current study we use next-generation sequencing to investigate the DWV quasispecies in an apiary known to suffer from overwintering colony losses. We show that the DWV species complex is made up of three master variants. Our results indicate that a new DWV Type C variant is distinct from the previously described types A and B, but together they form a distinct clade compared with other members of the Iflaviridae. The molecular clock estimation predicts that Type C diverged from the other variants ~319 years ago. The discovery of a new master variant of DWV has important implications for the positive identification of the true pathogen within global honey bee populations.

If memory serves, the academics investigated some Devon bees that had a higher than normal winter mortality. After virus investigation, they identified a type C DWV variant that seemed to be the problem with the bees over winter. It may be that some of your bees have this variant.

You'll be pleased to know that the MBA is doing more research for the BDI and I think BBKA so if your bees can hang on for a couple of years, there might some light at the end of the tunnel.

CVB

 

[Juhani Lundén]

I think it's reasonable to suppose that there is natural variation in mite size, cuticle thickness/hardness or chemical makeup or any number of life history traits (where in the hive mites prefer to hang out for example) and natural selection can act on this standing variation in one of more of these traits to give mites with increased resistance to OA. This needn't take millennia and could easily happen in our lifetimes. It will be slowed as the selection pressure of OA is only applied to occasional generations of mites, but if OA is used as several points in the year, resistance will arise more quickly.

I agree. This might already be happening in Estonia and Finland where OA has been used for 20 years.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Erica


You'll be pleased to know that the MBA is doing more research for the BDI and I think BBKA so if your bees can hang on for a couple of years, there might some light at the end of the tunnel.

CVB

Thank you CVB
I try to follow as much of this as I can and look forward to this light.....

 

[pargyle]

You may be right. As for OA, I think the method of action is a bit of a red herring. A thicker exoskeleton or one with a different chemical makeup might offer a bit of resistance. It only needs to be a few % increase in the probability of survival, not complete and immediate immunity.

I think it's reasonable to suppose that there is natural variation in mite size, cuticle thickness/hardness or chemical makeup or any number of life history traits (where in the hive mites prefer to hang out for example) and natural selection can act on this standing variation in one of more of these traits to give mites with increased resistance to OA. This needn't take millennia and could easily happen in our lifetimes. It will be slowed as the selection pressure of OA is only applied to occasional generations of mites, but if OA is used as several points in the year, resistance will arise more quickly.

I think this is the key ... I don't treat my bees but if the need arises I would using OA by sublimation - I have the kit and have used it on other people's bees ... but the problem we face is the 'treat regardless' brigade .. I see on another thread that someone over a period of three months had hit their colonies with three DIFFERENT treatments. If OA sublimation was limited to a single intensive period of treatment, at a time (say mid winter) when brood was low and EVERYONE did it .. there would be less chance of evolutionary development. With a knockdown rate of 97% (LASI Figure) perhaps, just perhaps, we would have less issues with varroa than the present scattergun approach seems to yield.

My hope is that we eventually reach a state of equilibrium with bees that can survive alongside the mites and my view is that the only way we will achieve this is by not treating our bees - but I recognise that I'm in a minority so the only pragmatic way forward is for our National association to encourage a systemised approach to mite management as the present fragmented way does not seem to be yielding better results year on year ?

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

I see on another thread that someone over a period of three months had hit their colonies with three DIFFERENT treatments. .

Getting old, Philip? It was above, "barely five minutes ago".
http://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=531254&postcount=83

 

[pargyle]

Getting old, Philip? It was above, "barely five minutes ago".
http://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=531254&postcount=83

Yeh ... I'm getting old .. I did look for it but it was such a stupid idea that I could not be bothered looking further !! I'm at the age where my short term memory only lasts a long as my next trip to the toilet for a pee !! But ... I remember things from the 1960's with crystal clarity - which is really amazing considering !!

... Just looked and it was YESTERDAY ... No chance !

 

[Cussword]

Yeh ... I'm getting old. I'm at the age where my short term memory only lasts a long as my next trip to the toilet for a pee !

I'm at an age where, if I see a toilet while I'm out I think,,, "well, I may as well use it while I'm here"


.

 

[pargyle]

I'm at an age where, if I see a toilet while I'm out I think,,, "well, I may as well use it while I'm here"

.

Yes ... yes ... all too familiar ! I just wonder where I used to put 6 or 7 pints of Stones Best Bitter ... 1 pint now and I might as well have the rest of the night in the toilet !!

 

[robert lloyd]

No - as I explained earlier - it's to do with the one virus taking over from the kaleidoscope of millions of different DNA strains of DWV in the first place - triggered by stresses caused by varroa initially to bring us type A but now slowly being taken over by the less harmful type B. it's all unstable at the moment and any introduction of a 'type B' queen is pointless as type A spores will quickly be re-introduced and we're back to square one. There is no quick fix - just a gradual (but rapid in evolution terms) transformation

Aye the bee which have been here longer than us e olve to face threats it appears they are doing same with varroz which to me is a disease vector not the

 

[enrico]

Wow, a resurrection of an old thread which just shows how our hopes of bees overcoming varroa have been dashed since then!

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Wow, a resurrection of an old thread which just shows how our hopes of bees overcoming varroa have been dashed since then!

Its life Jim/but not as we know it. (With acknowledgement to "Star trekkjng")

 

[fian]

In case no one has uploaded it yet, I put the study link
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4936039/