How to get All Beekeepers a Bad Name

[Murox]

In 2010 the government recognised the importance of bees to the national economy and supported backgarden beekeepers together with a training project run in partnership by the British Beekeeping Association (BBKA) and National Diploma of Beekeeping Board (NDBB), and jointly funded by DEFRA.
We all have a legal responsibility to manage our bees in a way that does not cause harm to others. Wherever your apiary is, you have a duty to warn anybody who approaches it that there a hazard i.e. live bees, even if it is in you own back garden. You even have to post warnings such that a trespasser would be aware of the bees, otherwise your insurance may be invalid. It is also your responsibility when sighting an apiary to ensure that the bees do not cause a nuisance to other people, that is to say interfere with their enjoyment of their property.

 

[Antipodes]

Hi Murox, thanks for that. Are you are talking about the common law? Negligence and nuisance?
No legislation whatsoever covering bees?

 

[SDM]

Ahh but then this comes back to what do you allow to re-wild? you can't re-wild a Buckfast bee as it has never existed as a wild bee surely?
do you allow re-wilding of non native sub species too or only the European dark bee?

Don't get me wrong, in the right places and with the right bees I think its a great idea but not in a built up area where they are more likely to end up in someones house than in a tree.

Releasing non native species is an offence as I understand it. Not sure how this would apply to sub species

 

[Murox]

Hi Murox, thanks for that. Are you are talking about the common law? Negligence and nuisance?
No legislation whatsoever covering bees?

yes, most laws (that i have found) to do with bees are about disease and honey labelling . there are probably some obscure local by-laws and odd examples where the keeping of livestock is expressly prohibited; where I actually live the keeping of bees and chickens is expressly forbidden in the "deeds" of all properties on the development.(Mind you there are also other things which are forbidden that nobody pays any attention to)

 

[birdsandbees]

Releasing non native species is an offence as I understand it. Not sure how this would apply to sub species

I know, its a grey area that is clearly just overlooked.

It's illegal to release or allow to escape into the wild any animal which is not ordinarily resident or native in Great Britain and is not a regular visitor to Great Britain in a wild state, or is listed in Schedule 9 to the Act.

The Bees act of 1980 covers pests and disease risks but not Species or sub species being imported?

Think of it in terms of Squirrel..

The red squirrel or Eurasian red squirrel (Sciurus vulgaris)
The grey squirrel (Sciurus carolinensis)

Both Sciurus species just different species, one native and under threat from the other which is a non native species to the UK, the difference is that if someone was actively propagating Grey Squirrels and releasing them into the countryside they would be prosecuted?

It's up to each individual to decide which bee they want to keep but I think any re-wilding should be contained to amm or near pure stock.

 

[fatshark]

Think of it in terms of Squirrel..

The red squirrel or Eurasian red squirrel (Sciurus vulgaris)
The grey squirrel (Sciurus carolinensis)

Both Sciurus species just different sub species, one native and under threat from the other which is a non native species to the UK, the difference is that if someone was actively propagating Grey Squirrels and releasing them into the countryside they would be prosecuted?

Nope ... theses are two different species belonging to the same genus (Sciurus).

 

[mjt68]

Think of it in terms of Squirrel..

The red squirrel or Eurasian red squirrel (Sciurus vulgaris)
The grey squirrel (Sciurus carolinensis)

Both Sciurus species just different sub species, one native and under threat from the other which is a non native species to the UK, the difference is that if someone was actively propagating Grey Squirrels and releasing them into the countryside they would be prosecuted?

It's up to each individual to decide which bee they want to keep but I think any re-wilding should be contained to amm or near pure stock.

Sciurus vulgaris and S. carolinensis are different species. They are very different and the law is clear.

All honeybees are the same species, Apis mellifera. There are some subspecies (carnica, lingustica, caucasica, mellifera etc.) but these refer to wild bees in their home ranges. 'Domesticated' bees for sale might well include some genes from other subspecies so may not be taxonomically 'pure'. In beekeeping terms I think we could consider the different bee strains something like breeds of cattle.

'Buckfast' isn't a recognised taxonomic unit and might be considered something like a breed, although given that it is essentially a hybrid and that anybody can label anything a Buckfast (more or less) leads me to think that it is meaningless to try and give it any taxonomic rank.

 

[thedozzer]

On a more serious note than flying pebbles.
This is more of an emotive issue than practical issue. as from what i understand there is no real mechanism in place for the registration/regulation of having/keeping bees and i would imagine that until something serious happens then it will stay voluntary regulation. so the only thing that any of us can do is talk to fellow bee keepers and encourage responsible bee keeping, but as with most things in life, opinions will differ as to what is acceptable.
The trick then is even if you don't agree with them don't descend into "i'm right your wrong" arguments, or insulting them as once you lost dialogue the chances that they will ever listen to your ideas is gone.
would say to the OP, that maybe the best way to deal with the situation is to pop round to the house with multiple bee hives and introduce your self. explain that you are from the local association and that you have been called about their swarms and do they need any help?
you never know he might be a decent person that just hasn't had the right mentoring?

 

[birdsandbees]

Nope ... theses are two different species belonging to the same genus (Sciurus).

Yes, technically I was wrong, I'm not a Biologist but you get my drift, both from the same family but quite different and one is native one isn't.

perhaps a better choice of animal would have been the British red Fox, European red foxes and Japanese ones are all the same Species but the sub species are genetically quite different

 

[birdsandbees]

On a more serious note than flying pebbles.
This is more of an emotive issue than practical issue. as from what i understand there is no real mechanism in place for the registration/regulation of having/keeping bees and i would imagine that until something serious happens then it will stay voluntary regulation. so the only thing that any of us can do is talk to fellow bee keepers and encourage responsible bee keeping, but as with most things in life, opinions will differ as to what is acceptable.
The trick then is even if you don't agree with them don't descend into "i'm right your wrong" arguments, or insulting them as once you lost dialogue the chances that they will ever listen to your ideas is gone.
would say to the OP, that maybe the best way to deal with the situation is to pop round to the house with multiple bee hives and introduce your self. explain that you are from the local association and that you have been called about their swarms and do they need any help?
you never know he might be a decent person that just hasn't had the right mentoring?

Great advice which will either be rejected as they have a certificate showing that they are ace or they will be glad of the advice.. especially if you told them it would give them more honey or bees

 

[For want of a better word]

I know, its a grey area that is clearly just overlooked.

It's illegal to release or allow to escape into the wild any animal which is not ordinarily resident or native in Great Britain and is not a regular visitor to Great Britain in a wild state, or is listed in Schedule 9 to the Act.

The Bees act of 1980 covers pests and disease risks but not Species or sub species being imported?

Think of it in terms of Squirrel..

The red squirrel or Eurasian red squirrel (Sciurus vulgaris)
The grey squirrel (Sciurus carolinensis)

Both Sciurus species just different species, one native and under threat from the other which is a non native species to the UK, the difference is that if someone was actively propagating Grey Squirrels and releasing them into the countryside they would be prosecuted?

It's up to each individual to decide which bee they want to keep but I think any re-wilding should be contained to amm or near pure stock.

This is the law that hinders Dad's army in locating Asian hornet nests.... catch and release and you break the law!... seems not to apply to government departments tho!!

Chons da

 

[Antipodes]

https://www.legislation.tas.gov.au/view/whole/html/inforce/current/sr-2011-122

Take a look at s. 5(2) (c)

....foundationless is illegal

We don't have to register here but I have. If there is an AFB scare in one of my apiary areas I am emailed, but more importantly I would also be contacted if the small hive beetle or varroa are detected. Certain diseases need to be declared also ("notifiable" diseases).

In addition to the Animal Health Act, we have the Local Government Act (which has a section on nuisance) and then most local governments (councils) have by-laws dealing with bees (numbers of hives and distance from homes etc).

 

[eltalia]

https://www.legislation.tas.gov.au/view/whole/html/inforce/current/sr-2011-122

Take a look at s. 5(2) (c)

....foundationless is illegal

We don't have to register here but I have.
(edit)

I cannot get "illegal" from "approved".
The rego thing is a problem for the whole of the Country
and why on biosecurity grounds alone National standards
are a priority.

As the Coalition could give a fig for National standards do
choose those who do when voting today.
One Country One People.
/waves/

Bill

 

[Antipodes]

approved foundation means a flat sheet of beeswax or other material, which has a base of honeycomb cells, approved by the Chief Veterinary Officer;

Good morning Bill.....

Labour will win today mate.

 

[eltalia]

approved foundation means a flat sheet of beeswax or other
material, which has a base of honeycomb cells, approved by the Chief Veterinary Officer;

Good morning Bill.....

Labour will win today mate.

I'd need to see that from your CVO as it
certainly isn't the case in Qld.

That said, none I know of in the c'mrcl game
have ever or would ever go foundationless
on purely practical grounds, and despite the
advantages for hobbyists I couldn't push the
practice onto newbies as the small but important
nuances of foundationless are a "bridge too far"
in amongst all the other 'stuff' they need to absorb.

We run mostly foundationless as in retirement
migratory is n0t an option. and the only "honey money"
we are even halfway interested in is cutcomb.

The Vote.
/nods/
...and make sure you get that Jacki sheila back in the
big red chair.

OL' MATE...had a good run and even in Death was still
holding his Country in consideration of moving forward.
RIP - Hawkey
/waves/

Bill

 

[Antipodes]

...and did you see the penalty for going without foundation?

It might be a leftover of the penal colony thing on the other side of the world, but cat o' nine tails and a stint on Sarah Island?

Nasty stuff.

 

[eltalia]

...and did you see the penalty for going without foundation?

Yeppas, shoulda shut me yap on that one as it didn't all get read on
a quick pass. Too keen to get to the polls, and we have a bit of a drive
to the nearest booth - a direct result of cutbacks in Federal funding
for schools, phark dem Tories!
Back now and not needing lunch - having a gutfull of republic sausages
on board... Heh.

It might be a leftover of the penal colony thing on the other side of the world,
but cat o' nine tails and a stint on Sarah Island?
Nasty stuff.

/nods/
You touch on why it is I retain a dash of empathy for our Pommy cousins,
as you cannot hold grist against those so poorly treated on their own soil
in past times?? As bad as it was we treated the custodians of this Land
better... !... it'd all have to leave a little SOL(iver) for following generations.
So it is not all surprising to read neighbourly functions are a tad fractured
in close quarters among the villagers.

Bill

 

[Newbeeneil]

I am out Association Swarm Officer and we operate a system where all our collectors have a default number that rings a central phone. During the working day there are only a few of us available to cover calls for swarms.
Our association area borders 6 others including some across county boundaries.
Yesterday I received a number of calls from a neighbouring village about 4 miles away in Oxfordshire. Calls had been made to Oxford beekeepers with no success and the BBKA map gives me as the nearest swarm collector.
At lunchtime I receive a call from a lady whose garden is full of swarming bees milling around. She is very is very sensible and says she will ring back when they settle. A call a little later tells me they have settled on the rear door of a neighbouring property to the left of her house but there is another swarm milling around in the garden to the right of her house.
She goes to look in the rear garden of the first house and rings back to say she believes he has hives in his back garden.
The occupier of the house to the right rings me to say there is a large swarm in his garden. I go to collect. By the time I get there they have moved on.
I pay a courtesy call on the lady and she takes me to view the neighbours garden via a rear gate.
I was amazed at the sight that greeted me. In a garden about 30 ft. square there was a stack of at least 8 hives possibly 12. There were 2 NUC boxes on a porch roof.
The hives were in rows of 3 with a second hive on the roof of the first and not daring to venture too far there appeared to be a second row . I could definitely see a 4th pair but did not dare venture further as another was swarming and the whole area was thick with bees.
This small garden was totally given over to hives and equipment and inspection of the lower hives in the stacks must be close to impossible if you have to lift the top hives off each time. (hence the swarming!!!)
Neighbours were not aware that bees were kept here and my colleagues have already collected 2 swarms from nearby gardens in the last week.
IMHO this guy should be banned from beekeeping. The RSPCA would prosecute anyone who kept other livestock in these unsuitable conditions.
What can we do????

I have recently taken two swarms from properties neighbouring a garden containing 3 hives. Both were casts so I assume there have been other swarms previously. I was told by one of the neighbours that the hives owners were away on holiday for 3 weeks!
Madness!!!

 

[Ian123]

I suggest you go put a bait hive up Neil............to our Aussie firends how did the election go, i guess you guys are crying over some sandpaper as we speak.............

 

[Karsal]

I'm a swarm collector for our association and have been called out twice this week to attend to two swarms that have been in back gardens of houses close to where I live and two miles apart from each other.
I could not believe that both of the occupants of the homes were backyard beekeepers who did not know what to do with a settled swarm. Both did not have anything to put a swarm in as they only wanted one hive and I could take the captured swarms away!
Hell one of the residents has actually kept bees at their home for eight years. My bait hives are three hundred yards away on a building and captured three swarms last year.
No swarm control there then?