How do you stop inbreeding?

[Hivemaker.]

Athough in normal circumstances,there is not much proplem with inbreeding i think the last two seasons have been bad due to weather,and virgins going out to mate,if at all, could be mating with not as many drones as required,and even mating near to the hives with drones from there own colony,which could lead to some temporary inbreeding.Another reason why some fail not long after mating as well.

 

[Finman]

.
During decades I have had several indikations about bad genes of which I must get rid off. It took some year and so the feature disapeared for ever.

Sometimes I have seen too much holes in the brood area. Something kills larvae.

My hives are in the place where is quite few beekeepers. 20 years ago there was plenty of rural mongrels which, as I told, varroa killed.

To keep some features and get ridd off bad features it that breeding.

But my 20 hives is not such a number that I can play a great game.

 

[Norton]

Another reason why some fail not long after mating as well.

Hi Hivemaker,
I think that the problems with queen matings are varroa related. By this I mean that varroa feeding on the drone brood affects the quantity and quality of the sperm. I can see this clearly when doing AI, as we need many more drones now than we needed 15 years ago. I think that a large number of drones produce non-viable semen. We have done some experiments and dissections and all this points towards poor semen quality.
There is a way to get around the problem and this will probably be published at some future date.
Best regards
Norton.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Hi Norton. so varroa,and the weather in uk.its a wonder any queens can get mated at all.Also read that some of the substances we use for varroa control leads to infertile drones,formic acid being just one of them. who knows what other chemicals in the enviroment are also leading to the same drone infertility.

 

[Norton]

Hello,
Yes most of the varroa treatments used have some side effect on the bees - after all they are toxins! Fluvalinate and flumethrin cause reduced fertility in drones and coumaphos causes big problems for queens. I think that if the sperm are affected by a chemical, which they must be, they probably do not have enough vigour to migrate to the spermatheca and could cause blockages which results in queens that lay poorly, or not at all, even though when dissected they have sperm in the spermatheca.
Best regards
Norton.

 

[Finman]

Hi Norton. so varroa,and the weather in uk.its a wonder any queens can get mated at all.

Also read that some of the substances we use for varroa control leads to infertile drones,formic acid being just one of them. .

Our biggest queen raiser says that it is surely not.

As we have said, very few drone brood has mites. Are those so light and quick that just mite biten drones mate?

I do not believe that varroa explanation. Varroa has been in Europe so long that others should notice problems too, but I have not seen any writings in other countries.

Rogers research was not real research. He just asked from beekeepers and he had allready gived the right answer to beekeepers. And what wisedom beekeepers have?

 

[mrDoe]

Our biggest queen raiser says that it is surely not.

As we have said, very few drone brood has mites. Are those so light and quick that just mite biten drones mate?

I do not believe that varroa explanation. Varroa has been in Europe so long that others should notice problems too, but I have not seen any writings in other countries.

Rogers research was not real research. He just asked from beekeepers and he had allready gived the right answer to beekeepers. And what wisedom beekeepers have?

That?s odd! Almost everything I have read about Varroa reproduction states that the mites prefer to breed in comb containing drones, due to the longer period of time before the young drones emerge (is hatch a correct term here?)

In fact, I understood that some progress had been made toward identifying the specific drone pheromones that attract the mites; in an attempt to create yet another chemical treatment we can be sold.

Also, maybe you need to define your understanding of "research" as asking around, or even googling Wikipedia, might constitute research to many, just not scientific research!


Regards


Peter
Cambridge UK

 

[Finman]

That?s odd! Almost everything I have read about Varroa reproduction states that the mites prefer to breed in comb containing drones,

That it another question how many percent of drone pupae has been contminated by mites.

If they are many, the hive is in big troubles in autumn.

 

[mrDoe]

But you said "As we have said, very few drone brood has mites. Are those so light and quick that just mite biten drones mate? "

Mites are in fact very light and quick, yes. There are some very good videos of mites on bees trying to groom them off, which demonstrate just how quickly they can move. Mites may well move from one cell to another before they are capped into one where they will breed feeding on a larvae. Who can say that in doing so they don't transmit some agent that affect the reproductive capabilities of the exposed drone despite there being no Varroa trapped in its cell when capped off?


But your muddying the waters with this slight of hand, the discussion was that drone fertility is adversely effected by high varroa loads, to which you stated "As we have said, very few drone brood has mites.". The point I'm contending is that if there are any mites in a colony they will be reproducing in drone brood if it is present, so how do you justify your statement?

I'm inclined to believe that some drones are affected by the presence of Varroa in a colony, possibly by more than one factor. Then some beeks added drone culling into their IPM program which obviously cuts down the numbers of available drones for queens to mate with. Any feral colonies (including those recently lost from apiaries) are likely to have higher levels of mites which along with the decline of feral numbers compounds the problem of insufficient male breeding stock. That?s before we've even touched on the affects of pesticide build up and the collateral damage our treatments might be having.

 

[Hivemaker.]

I would think as Norton has allready stated that the treatments we use are just as bad as varroa regards drone fertility,and research i have seen on the internet states that formic and oxalic are two of the substances that cause drone infertility.plus loads more no doubt.

 

[mrDoe]

I would think as Norton has allready stated that the treatments we use are just as bad as varroa regards drone fertility,and research i have seen on the internet states that formic and oxalic are two of the substances that cause drone infertility.plus loads more no doubt.

I agree, but what's happening to feral colonies which are not being treated by beekeepers with these "beneficial" treatments, surely they are failing due to an unchecked mite load (pesticides will affects both feral and apiary bees equally)

Although I'm not sure how our winter oxalic treatment is affecting a drone population that as yet does not exist?

 

[Hivemaker.]

Don't know how either,as formic ect is used in autumn,maybe contamination of comb. feral bee's maybe more to do with mites than hive bee's,but has anyone tested feral bee drones for fertility anyway? And as for pesticides,well.

 

[Finman]

i have seen on the internet states that formic and oxalic are two of the substances that cause drone infertility.plus loads more no doubt.

I cannot find them. Dave Cushman writes about issue and sweep with totality the whole question.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Dave cushman,top reasearch scientist? think not.but this is what he says.

Health and viability of drones... Varroa treatment using Formic Acid renders the drones dry and impotent. Thymol effects drone survival and viability in the same way as formic acid, but I do not know the detailed figures. Varroa infestation and Apistan treatment both affect drones. Colonies intended to provide drones for insemination should be treated the previous year so that the reared drones are not affected by fluvalinate or any other residues.

 

[Finman]

Dave cushman,top reasearch scientist?

Where is his reasearch list?

First, shake bees with sugar


It is new to me that you make 0n bees scientic reasearches in UK

The point is that drones are at the begnning of summer and mite control later in summer.

 

[Hivemaker.]

HAHA, yes its a wonderment, go pop some drones in spring,about 20 days old,and see ho many yield semen,then look at under microscope.

Abstract:
We conducted research to examine the potential impacts of coumaphos, fluvalinate, and Apilife VAR (Thymol) on drone honey bee, Apis mellifera L. (Hymenoptera: Apidae), sperm viability over time. Drones were reared in colonies that had been treated with each miticide by using the dose recommended on the label. Drones from each miticide treatment were collected, and semen samples were pooled. The pooled samples from each treatment were subdivided and analyzed for periods of up to 6 wk. Random samples were taken from each treatment (n = 6 pools) over the 6-wk period. Sperm viability was measured using dual-fluorescent staining techniques. The exposure of drones to coumaphos during development and sexual maturation significantly reduced sperm viability for all 6 wk. Sperm viability significantly decreased from the initial sample to week 1 in control colonies, and a significant decrease in sperm viability was observed from week 5 to week 6 in all treatments and control. The potential impacts of these results on queen performance and failure are discussed.

 

[Norton]

Hello,
This is very interesting for all of us, I hope anyway. Do you have a reference about oxalic acid? I have always thought that this was one of the more "innocent" treatments - but am most interested for any information to the contrary.

One thing that has been shown to improve the situation is to provide the drone colonies with extra large drone comb early in the spring and cull the first generation of drones along with all the varroa in it. The following generation of drones is largely varroa free and are of good quality. However even if one does this, without a reliable isolated mating station, your virgin queens could still mate with other drones in the area and these may cause problems.
Feral drone populations, before they all died out from varroa, did contribute greatly towards the survivability of the total gene pool. Any colony that was able to survive for years on end must have had some resistance to nosema and foulbrood. They may have been great survivors and only produce enough honey for them to get through the winter to complete the reproductive cycle by swarming - not really suitable for beekeepers wanting to produce a decent honey crop.

Best regards
Norton.

 

[Poly Hive]

Susan Coby might be the person to ask on the issue of drone viability after varroa treatments?

PH

 

[Hivemaker.]

Don't know if sue cobey would know any more about this than many others around the world in research places,she may do,but i think she puts more time into breeding bee's with hygenic behaviour than chemical controls of varroa. Oxalic and formic are much the same,i believe when this is sublimated a proportion of it turns to formic,from what i read.and can be converted by the following. In the laboratory formic acid can be obtained by heating oxalic acid in anhydrous glycerol and extraction by steam distillation. Another preparation (which must be performed under a fume hood) is the acid hydrolysis of ethyl isonitrile using HCl solution.another link below.this is its title.There is a risk of drone infertility if spring treatments are required. ... This category contains Formic Acid, Oxalic Acid and Lactic Acid as well as .,more from cushman.
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/varroatreatment.html

and some more about inbreeding from the same place.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/dorian_nov07.html

 

[Finman]

We conducted research to examine the potential impacts of coumaphos, fluvalinate, and Apilife VAR (Thymol)

The pooled samples from each treatment were subdivided and analyzed for periods of up to 6 wk.

* The exposure of drones to coumaphos during development and sexual maturation significantly reduced sperm viability for all 6 wk.

* Sperm viability significantly decreased from the initial sample to week 1 in control colonies,

* and a significant decrease in sperm viability was observed from week 5 to week 6 in all treatments and control. .

I cannot see the answer to fluvinate and thymol are they different from control
Formic and oxalic acids were not here