Hives in gardens

[ma1308]

I have done a few first aid courses over the years and on every course it was stressed we may be sued and given a couple of scenarios of actual cases we was also told never administer medicine get the person to administer themselves if at all possible.

The one thing I find unbelievable is if you collapse for whatever reason in a Hospital the Doctors and Nurses will not attend to you it would be the designated First Aider, then a call to the ambulance service …. Mad or what (before anyone jumps on me for this statement I work for the NHS in a large Acute Hospital and that is the policy)

 

[MandF]

So was OJ Simpsons

And you seem to have ignored the maxim "innocent until proven guilty". The burden of proof is on the claimant. They have to PROVE they were stung by your bees, and/or PROVE you were negligent.

The OJ Simpson case highlights this, even though this was a US criminal showcase so not entirely representative!

 

[MandF]

First aiders are told not to administer drugs because of the temptation to give something based on good will but getting things wrong. It's safer in this case to have a wholesale ban on drug administration.

Well, "ban" is a misleading word in this context. I can understand the general advice, but it is not law.

I think the point is that, despite the scare stories, noone (us normal members of the public) is going to get sued or sent down if they are trying to save someones life and inadvertantly do the wrong thing. Having an epipen at an apiary site might be a bit OTT but in my opinion it demonstrates a beekeeper trying to behave responsibly by having something close to hand that might be useful to save someones life. Just because someone has one does not mean they will go around sticking everyone at the first opportunity! And if they did use it on someone who had gone into shock and it looked like they were going to die, then they arent going to get "done for murder" or anything so ridiculous.

 

[MandF]

I have done a few first aid courses over the years and on every course it was stressed we may be sued and given a couple of scenarios of actual cases we was also told never administer medicine get the person to administer themselves if at all possible.

The one thing I find unbelievable is if you collapse for whatever reason in a Hospital the Doctors and Nurses will not attend to you it would be the designated First Aider, then a call to the ambulance service …. Mad or what (before anyone jumps on me for this statement I work for the NHS in a large Acute Hospital and that is the policy)

Erm, I think we need to differentiate between medical professionals and normal joe public here!! Criminal negligence and all that.

But even so, lets have the actual cases you mention, we are 17 pages in and noone has actually come up with some relevant case law despite assurances that loads exist!

 

[victor meldrew]

Well, "ban" is a misleading word in this context. I can understand the general advice, but it is not law.

I think the point is that, despite the scare stories, noone is going to get sued or sent down if they are trying to save someones life and inadvertantly do the wrong thing. Having an epipen at an apiary site might be a bit OTT but in my opinion it demonstrates a beekeeper trying to behave responsibly by having something close to hand that might be useful to save someones life. Just because someone has one does not mean they will go around sticking everyone at the first opportunity! And if they did use it on someone who had gone into shock and it looked like they were going to die, then they arent going to get "done for murder" or anything so ridiculous.

VM

 

[madasafish]

I am not a qualified First Aider. Nevertheless I have helped a 9 month pregnant Nurse give CPR to an elderly man who had a heart attack outside our house 20 years ago. (He was driving with his wife, and crashed his car) As it turned out, he was dead anyway as the Ambulance crew who arrived after 10 minutes confirmed.

Would I do it again? Yes.

Am I worried about being sued? No.

Why? becuase I was doing my unqualified best to help someone stay alive when it was clear they were dying ...

There were zero come backs.. even although between us we managed to crack one of his ribs..



As far as administering an Epipen, I don't carry one so I could not do it unless the person involved had one. I'd stick to that stance.

I bought Household Legal Expenses cover with my House Insurance. So would have a modicum of paid for Legal Cover. In reality, if I was sued for helping, I would ensure the maximum possible publicity and place those suing me in a very unfortunate light ...

On a lighter note, I gave the unfortunate driver mouth to mouth after just eating a curry. I am not sure what was worse: removing his false teeth befiore mouth to mouth or the feeling that my curry wanted to exit me

 

[greatbritishhoney]

On a lighter note, I gave the unfortunate driver mouth to mouth after just eating a curry. I am not sure what was worse: removing his false teeth befiore mouth to mouth or the feeling that my curry wanted to exit me

Thanks for sharing
Think I'll skip lunch today.

 

[drstitson]

"The one thing I find unbelievable is if you collapse for whatever reason in a Hospital the Doctors and Nurses will not attend to you it would be the designated First Aider, then a call to the ambulance service …. Mad or what (before anyone jumps on me for this statement I work for the NHS in a large Acute Hospital and that is the policy)"

B******s!!!!

collapse in hospital = crash call NOT first aider and ambulance.

BTW great true story - visitor collapses in OP foyer at a large cambridge teaching hospital. obviously lots of medics to attend promptly. one calls out "can someone get the orange box?" to which a WRVS lady from the shop replies "I've got a banana one, will that do?"

 

[drstitson]

"Why? because I was doing my unqualified best to help someone stay alive when it was clear they were dying ..."

CPR for cardiac cause? - they were already "dead"; the resus might have got them back.

"There were zero come backs.. even although between us we managed to crack one of his ribs.."

Just the one? perhaps with a little more effort put in......

 

[Winker]

And you seem to have ignored the maxim "innocent until proven guilty". The burden of proof is on the claimant. They have to PROVE they were stung by your bees, and/or PROVE you were negligent.

The OJ Simpson case highlights this, even though this was a US criminal showcase so not entirely representative!

I never "ignored" anything. You said Fred had hired help and i said so did OJ. Both were guilty of Murder one got off free the other suffered for it. All thanks to the hired help.

 

[madasafish]

"Why? because I was doing my unqualified best to help someone stay alive when it was clear they were dying ..."

CPR for cardiac cause? - they were already "dead"; the resus might have got them back.

"There were zero come backs.. even although between us we managed to crack one of his ribs.."

Just the one? perhaps with a little more effort put in......

lol

 

[ma1308]

drstitson, if you was a patient on a ward they would call the crash team they have your medical records, if you had just walked through the door they would call an ambulance you would get admitted through A&E.

************** (I can do as well )

 

[MandF]

I never "ignored" anything. You said Fred had hired help and i said so did OJ. Both were guilty of Murder one got off free the other suffered for it. All thanks to the hired help.

Doesnt make any sense. The point that I made, and you now have, is that it doesnt matter if you personally pay a lawyer or not, the law doesnt change, the burden of proof doesnt change and you will win or lose based on the facts of the case and the law.

A beekeeper keeping bees in their garden is not against the law. Being a "reasonable" beekeper is not against the law. No matter how much money is spent on lawyers.

 

[madasafish]

As Basildon council is finding out (with Dale travellers), the use of lawyers puts money in the pockets of lawyers . Full stop.

If I had a complaint about bee stings - whether or not my bees - I would deny it and also give the complainant lots of honey to assuage the pain..

And sympathy.
And move my bees - if they were at fault.

Adopting a legalese defense is self defeating and makes lawyers rich.

Of course no lawyer would ever advise such a course of action . Because it would mean fewer ££S for them.

(My BIL has just settled a land dispute after spending some tens of thosuands in legal fees. They eventuially went to arbitration and discovered their conveyancing solicitor has done their searches wrong 12 years ago. (Retired now so no redress). Evetually they agreed to lose some/win some.

They would have been far cheaper to have gone that route at the start.)

Moral of the story: no lawyer will advise a course of action which results in lower fees.

With apologies to Storm and other lawyers present.

 

[Winker]

A beekeeper keeping bees in their garden is not against the law. Being a "reasonable" beekeper is not against the law. No matter how much money is spent on lawyers.

I hope not i have 4 hives in my back garden! I never once said anything to the contrary.

My only two points was be careful if you do keep them at home things can and do get out of hand. My second point was how mad it is for someone to whack an Epipen into someone without first consulting a professional for advice first.

 

[MandF]

My second point was how mad it is for someone to whack an Epipen into someone without first consulting a professional for advice first.

Even if someone was clearly dying in front of you, after having reported they were stung by a wasp or bee?

But anyhow, lots of people were not just saying "be careful" on either point, they were saying that you lay yourself open to being sued.

And you dont.

 

[drstitson]

"drstitson, if you was a patient on a ward they would call the crash team they have your medical records, if you had just walked through the door they would call an ambulance you would get admitted through A&E."

Not anywhere i've worked over last 25 years!!!!!! Yes likely to end up going via A&E resus BUT NOT via ambulance!!!!

Nearest to that i've had is coming across one of my patients collapsed on Princes Street, Edinburgh - ambulance had to take him to the A&E at the old royal infirmary only for me to then have to arrange admission under my care at the Western General for appropriate management.

common sense and VFM not in evidence.

PS username might give slight clue as to background?

 

[Hivemaker.]

Even if someone was clearly dying in front of you

I think i would just phone the local undertaker,and cut out the middle man.

 

[victor meldrew]

i think i would just phone the local undertaker,and cut out the middle man.

vm

 

[MandF]

I think i would just phone the local undertaker,and cut out the middle man.

In this country you'd probably get away with it, but not in lots of others.

Something worth noting if you are an an apiary in France and someone collapses after a sting clutching an epipen!

Unless you like (french) prison food that is.