Hives in gardens

[Hivemaker.]

Unless you like (french) prison food that is.

Well thats a relief from my point of view, i don't even like France,last place on the planet i would wish to be,so unlikely to ever happen.

 

[Winker]

Even if someone was clearly dying in front of you, after having reported they were stung by a wasp or bee?

And you dont.

picture this:

Im fitting double glazed windows in a customers house. The fat teenage son is left to keep an eye on us as the mother goes out to the shops.

I walk through the living room to get to the kitchen window, which im working on and see the little fat lad sitting in the chair watching day time TV smoking a fag.

3 minuets latter i walk back into the living room to see the same little fat lad shaking violently in the chair, frothing at the mouth and looking a blue colour in his face.

I thought he was on his death bed! So i run around the house looking for a phone to call 999. Up stair in every bed room...no land line to be seen. Down stair again in every room...no land line to be seen.

So i run back to the living room expecting the fat lad to be dead, only to be greeted by him with a puff of smoke blown my way from the very same fag he was smoking a few minuets before i seen him in his death throws.

I stood there looking at him, and he looked at me as if nothing had gone on. I asked him if he was taking the piss, he said ehh?

When his mother came back i told her what went down and how i thought he was a goner. At this point she told me he suffered from epileptic fits and after he had one he didn't remember having them.

Never again will i make a diagnoses that some one is dying, i will leave that to the professionals.

Edit: If its any consolation, I will comfort you in your last few minuets on this earth and pass on any messages you want passed onto your loved ones.

 

[thorn]

Yes as no win no fee you will want a good case to take it on.

But what happens when neighbour with more money than sense walks through your door with a personal grudge with the neighbour and says take this case on??

I advise him on the strength of his case as he has explained it to me. If it appears a good one I take his money. If I think he's on an expensive loser, I tell him that. It's called being professional. Most lawyers are, you know.

 

[MandF]

picture this:

Im fitting double glazed windows in a customers house. The fat teenage son is left to keep an eye on us as the mother goes out to the shops.

... A very nice story but not what I actually suggested, ("reported having been stung by a wasp"), and if you cannot tell the difference between an epileptic fit and anaphylactic shock, as a beekeeper, then I agree you shouldnt be anywhere near a first aid kit.

 

[drstitson]

"shaking violently in the chair, frothing at the mouth "

neither of which you do during a cardiac or respiratory arrest (or anaphylaxis for that matter).

However, no matter what the emergency the core "ABC" always applies (which of course omits the most important first point - "is it safe for me to intervene?" ie is the victim lying on the live rail).

Is Airway clear?
Is pt Breathing?
Is there a pulse (Circulation)?

then you start CPR.

 

[Winker]

... A very nice story but not what I actually suggested, ("reported having been stung by a wasp"), and if you cannot tell the difference between an epileptic fit and anaphylactic shock, as a beekeeper, then I agree you shouldnt be anywhere near a first aid kit.

thats my point i cant tell the difffrence, so why the hell would you want me to start trying stuff i had seen on the TV or read on a bee forum on how to save you anyone!

 

[MandF]

What you do is your choice, but so is it our choice to try and help someone if in the same position. There were suggestions that trying to help someone was reckless, dangerous, stupid etc., and could leave one open to being sued.

I hope that is not still the message, and as I said, your attitude would get you a prison sentence in many european countries, not ours!

And also, I might add, noone is advocating just "trying stuff" if you werent at least aware of the situation presented to you. If you saw a toddler walking into a main road, would you run off trying to find an aspirin for them? Or an epipen? Or other "stuff"?

 

[greatbritishhoney]

"

Is Airway clear?
Is pt Breathing?
Is there a pulse (Circulation)?

then you start CPR.

I assume the answer shouod be "no" to the three questions before you start CPR?

 

[drstitson]

GBH - NO!!! if airway not clear - clear it - may be all that's needed.

perhaps better as lay person to think " Airway, Breathing, Compressions"

so -

check and open airway ("head tilt — chin lift") - may involve deep sweep of mouth with hooked index finger to remove foreign material, vomit etc.
check for normal breathing - if NO start compressions.



"thats my point i cant tell the difference"

hence why first line should be basic ABC check then call 999.

if someone goes down, ABCs done and no CPR needed then you just need to get them in recovery position and wait for help to arrive. (ok - if conscious and anaphylaxis suspected then supine with legs raised better).

 

[Winker]

"shaking violently in the chair, frothing at the mouth "

neither of which you do during a cardiac or respiratory arrest (or anaphylaxis for that matter).

However, no matter what the emergency the core "ABC" always applies (which of course omits the most important first point - "is it safe for me to intervene?" ie is the victim lying on the live rail).

Is Airway clear?
Is pt Breathing?
Is there a pulse (Circulation)?

then you start CPR.

Here was me thinking the ABC was
Airways (Is the person Breathing)
Bones (Does the person have any Broken Bones)
Cuts (is the person bleeding from anywhere)

As for checking for a pulse, i believe that 90% of the population has no clue as how to check property and end up felling their own pulse.

And only do CPR if the person is unresponsive/dead

Doc you have sat on the fence all the way through. In your Professional Opinion, Should anyone go sticking their "own" Epipen into some else when they think the person may be dying from a insect sting Before seeking medical advice?

And as it was suggested earlier as a Doctor would you prescribe an Epipen and tell the person its meant for, its ok to use on others if he thinks they may be in trouble?

 

[greatbritishhoney]

GBH - NO!!! .

Sorry, I was just being a little facetious. It just sounded a little bit like Rab's recent quote of the year.

 

[Winker]

I hope that is not still the message, and as I said, your attitude would get you a prison sentence in many european countries, not ours!

There again i can do many things in European countrys that would get you jail time here Thats no argument!

 

[MandF]

Doc you have sat on the fence all the way through. In your Professional Opinion, Should anyone go sticking their "own" Epipen into some else when they think the person may be dying from a insect sting Before seeking medical advice?

And as it was suggested earlier as a Doctor would you prescribe an Epipen and tell the person its meant for, its ok to use on others if he thinks they may be in trouble?

Oh dear.. how low can you go to try and win the argument!

Read back what I (and others) have been saying.

Let me help and join the dots up for you..

If someone at your home comes in from the garden, says they have been stung by something, and starts to have a bad reaction you wait, give antihistamine or whatever.

If it is causing breathing difficulties dial 999.

WHILST ON THE PHONE, if they are telling you the ambulance is going to be there in 15 mins, but the person is literally suffocating, you mention you have an epipen. If they, or someone else they pass you onto, tells you to go ahead and use it, you use it.

Also, my doctor never said I could just use it "if I thought someone else may be in trouble". My doctor NEVER SAID, do NOT use it on someone else, even if they are dying from anaphylactic shock. The reason we gave to them to get the pen was, we are now keeping bees and would like an epipen just in case one of us, or neighbours/friends develop a critical condition.

Now, read the above and ask are we, and those like us, acting responsibly or, as you are suggesting irresponsibly (and immorally/illegally)?

 

[MandF]

There again i can do many things in European countrys that would get you jail time here Thats no argument!

YES IT IS. Jesus.

You (or others) said that using an epipen, in an emergency, is reckless AND you would end up being sued if it ended up being the wrong thing to do in that case.

IT IS NOT ILLEGAL HERE IN THE UK. YOU WOULD NEVER GET SUED as a member of the public, if you tried to SAVE SOMEONES LIFE.

To underline the fact that it is NOT ILLEGAL, and you are NOT laying yourself open to be sued, I said that in other western european countries is it in fact illegal NOT to help where you could, unless helping would put YOU in peril.

So, do you accept that, if someone was dying in front of you, clutching an epipen, if you took it and used it, but it didnt work, YOU WOULD NOT BE SUED HERE IN THE UK? Simple yes or no?

 

[Winker]

Oh dear.. how low can you go to try and win the argument!

Read back what I (and others) have been saying.

Let me help and join the dots up for you..

If someone at your home comes in from the garden, says they have been stung by something, and starts to have a bad reaction you wait, give antihistamine or whatever.

If it is causing breathing difficulties dial 999.

WHILST ON THE PHONE, if they are telling you the ambulance is going to be there in 15 mins, but the person is literally suffocating, you mention you have an epipen. If they, or someone else they pass you onto, tells you to go ahead and use it, you use it.

Also, my doctor never said I could just use it "if I thought someone else may be in trouble". My doctor NEVER SAID, do NOT use it on someone else, even if they are dying from anaphylactic shock. The reason we gave to them to get the pen was, we are now keeping bees and would like an epipen just in case one of us, or neighbours/friends develop a critical condition.

Now, read the above and ask are we, and those like us, acting responsibly or, as you are suggesting irresponsibly (and immorally/illegally)?

Here is what you said:

Thats one of the other things we have, as responsible beekeepers - and epipen in case a visitor to our house or a neighbour gets stung and goes into shock.

Nothing about seeking medical help or being on the phone to 999.


I said:

How qualified are you to say he is dying?

My doctor told me NOT to use MY Epipen on ANYONE even if i thought they were dying. His words not mine. So if thats what an expert has to say about them, who am i to argue.

to which you replyed:

That is different to what my doctor told me - so which "expert" is right.

If someone is in trouble, we call 999, are told emergency services are 10 mins away so we should use the epipen we would. What absolute nutters eh.

I dont do joining up the dots or reading between the lines i am not a mind reader!

My Doctor told me the Epipen is a dangerous drug for some people and should NEVER be given/administered to ANYONE without medical approval.

My Doctor would not give the pen before i agreed to this!

I never once said you were acting illegally


But going on what i have quoted above i would say on what's written there you would be acting as a "have a go wanta be hero"

You have since then expanded on what you think is correct way of dealing with a suspected, and i emphasise SUSPECTED anaphylaxis, by seeking medical help first. But im still bothered by the fact your Doctor said its ok to use when mine says dont under any circumstance.

I never once said anything about any kind of court action.

My concern is about Nutters running around with Dangerous drugs and whacking them into every tom dick and harry when they "Suspect" they are dying, "WITHOUT" seeking medical Help

 

[itma]

Does beekeeper behaviour change as dramatically (in the opposite direction) as bee behaviour, as winter approaches?

 

[greatbritishhoney]

I think most of this argument has already been played in several other threads (pretty much word for word).
IMO, the long and short of it is that one would have to make a spur of the moment decision whether to use the pen or not. Hopefully this decision would be based on sound medical advice, but medical advice is often not situation specific and, therefore, people may occasionally go against it.

The chances of getting sued are absolutely minimal unless there was some strong element of willful intent / negligence.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

Good God, I don't know why I have read through all these posts!
Please all go and attend to your bees immediately! Jar some honey, clean a grotty queen excluder, rub Hivemakers thymol recipie over your thighs, just do something!

 

[greatbritishhoney]

, rub Hivemakers thymol recipie over your thighs,

Just off to do that now.
Can I sue you if I suffer a bad reaction?

 

[MandF]

My concern is about Nutters running around with Dangerous drugs and whacking them into every tom dick and harry when they "Suspect" they are dying, "WITHOUT" seeking medical Help

I qualified my initial statement almost immediately, it isnt my fault if you didnt read that or chose to ignore it!

My comment was jumped on (about having an epipen), I was called a nutter, called irresponsible, told my doctor wouldnt have allowed it, told I could be sued for murder if I did use it, blah blah blah.

I would suggest that the people saying that would first establish the FACTS both with when I personally would use my epipen, and also basic English law. You have since moved to the opposite end of the spectrum and said you would not try to save someones life at all, because you are not a medical expert.

The FACT is, I have an epipen and clearly my medical "expert" understood my reasons for wanting one and could see I was a reasonable, responsible, intelligent adult. If your doctor told you something different, well, who am I to argue with their assessment of you.