Here come comes Hive Beetle !

[Fusion_power]

Bought popcorn, have cold drinks. Pulling up a chair, watching with extreme interest. This should be awfucational. (portmanteau of awful and educational)

 

[Walrus]

Bought popcorn, have cold drinks. Pulling up a chair, watching with extreme interest. This should be awfucational. (portmanteau of awful and educational)

You might have to wait until tomorrow as it's past midnight here

Happy Thanksgiving to you, Mr Palmer and any others from Stateside who drop in here from time to time

 

[Leigh]

CharlieL - it is good that you have engaged with this.

I am a full time commercial bee farmer. I have imported packages in previous years, sourced from Italy.

As part of this process, SBA's were present to inspect packages when the packages were decanted into my hives. As far as I know, this is the only biosecurity measure at the UK end of any package import.

Having decanted multiple packages into hives, I can say that the likelihood of an SBA detecting the presence of Small Hive Beetle in an infected package is close to Zero - it is NOT an effective bio-security measure.

Importation of packages to the UK is allowed not because it is safe, but because of free trade regulations within EU member states. Imports from an infected area are thankfully not allowed, but we can't legally have a blanket ban on an area that we perceive might be a risk. Bummer.

This report from 2015 (https://efsa.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.2903/j.efsa.2015.4328) makes interesting and reading, especially the conclusions towards the end.

It may be that Bee Equipment are being careful that their packages come from a region where SHB has not yet been detected, but how can anyone know with enough certainty that SHB isn't in the area undetected ? Certificates from humans in business are fallible. Certificates from Italian humans in business....?

From what I can see following links and reports from (https://www.izsvenezie.com/aethina-tumida-in-italy/), the latest cases found have been in the wild population - if SHB is in a wild colony, it is surely reasonable to assume that it is in others, uncontrolled, so will continue spread. This is presumably why they have sentinel apiaries.

So, measures are in place - it may be that supplying from an area sufficiently far from an infected area is ok. However, who determines a cast-iron safe distance? Bio-security measures at the UK end would not be effective, so the measures at the source end need to be 100% safe. This shouldn't merely involve checking certificates. It should mean men on the ground NOT involved in the selling business - commercially involved people, whilst quite possibly conscientious, would be susceptible to a human trait of not seeing what they don't want to see.

There is a commercial argument for using Southern EU package bees (price AND early season availability). There are also risk-free areas within the EU from which to run a package operation.

Bee Equipment: if you are sure you are 100% safe, then good luck. However, if you end up being responsible for introduction of SHB into the UK, hindsight will give you some very unpleasant reflection, and surely wouldn't be good for business.

It goes without saying that SHB would be devastating in the UK. Packages are a very useful tool, and I have benefited from them. Hand on heart: I'm having difficulty balancing this one. Emotional reaction would be to say no to any importation of packages. Logical one is that with proper cast-iron checks at the blunt end, and common sense approach to source areas (ie a VERY LARGE distance beyond doubt from an outbreak), then it makes sense.

My discomfort is that with so many other potential areas from which to import, why are we doing it so close to the only outbreak in the EU?

By the way, here are other routes for SHB to get into the UK - soil and fruit. The last I saw on measures to counter this was that our government had sent a letter to interested/involved parties and told them to be jolly careful. Oh good.

 

[Ian123]

Dear god sir a touch of common sense, reality and practical experience to the discussion. I take my hat off, go get some popcorn and sit back!!

 

[SDM]

Having decanted multiple packages into hives, I can say that the likelihood of an SBA detecting the presence of Small Hive Beetle in an infected package is close to Zero - it is NOT an effective bio security measure

Debris from the packages is also sampled for SHB DNA

From what I can see following links and reports from (https://www.izsvenezie.com/aethina-tumida-in-italy/), the latest cases found have been in the wild population - if SHB is in a wild colony, it is surely reasonable to assume that it is in others, uncontrolled, so will continue spread. This is presumably why they have sentinel apiaries.

We have sentinel apiaries too , they simply serve to identify new sites of infection. Wild colonies present a far lower risk of spreading SHB. The beetle does not live on bees and disperses by around 2km max per year naturally. The potential for spread in managed colonies is unlimited ( just look at how quickly it covered the US)



QUOTE=Leigh;694178]
So, measures are in place - it may be that supplying from an area sufficiently far from an infected area is ok. However, who determines a cast-iron safe distance? Bio-security measures at the UK end would not be effective, so the measures at the source end need to be 100% safe. This shouldn't merely involve checking certificates. It should mean men on the ground NOT involved in the selling business - commercially involved people, whilst quite possibly conscientious, would be susceptible to a human trait of not seeing what they don't want to see.

There is a commercial argument for using Southern EU package bees (price AND early season availability). There are also risk-free areas within the EU from which to run a package operation.



It goes without saying that SHB would be devastating in the UK. Packages are a very useful tool, and I have benefited from them. Hand on heart: I'm having difficulty balancing this one. Emotional reaction would be to say no to any importation of packages. Logical one is that with proper cast-iron checks at the blunt end, and common sense approach to source areas (ie a VERY LARGE distance beyond doubt from an otbreak), then it makes sense.[/QUOTE]

Health certification for the exporting apiary is already issued by those outside the commercial sphere of influence
No distances on the continent are cast iron safe if someone breaks the movement order within the infected area( which has already happened). If someone decides he can get a better price for his bees in a central France market, then instantly nowhere in mainland Europe is safe.
However, outside of the S.East SHB is unlikely to be a major pest. Soil temps and humidity are rather unsuitable to the adult beetles. That doesn't mean i take the matter lightly, its a problem I'd much rather not have to deal with at all..
That said , im unaware of bee movement ever being the source of spread to a new landmass and as weve both mentioned fruit/plants are a far more likely source. I struggle to believe that SHB hasnt been here many times but simply failed to take hold. I have a friend in Cheshire who imports many mature olive trees from the control area every year, which are a far greater risk of spreading these bugs.

 

[Leigh]

SDM - agree with all of that. I forgot to mention the debris sample....although in many cases that would involve a view of an open stable door and a horses arse!

I've heard different opinions of viability of SHB in the UK. Areas with lighter soil would seem to be more at risk.

Interesting point about the Olive trees. Basic conformation that it isn't being taken seriously. The stiff letter sent by HM Government amazingly didn't seem to deter imports from affected areas - who'd have thought?

Also interesting to note that despite Australia's rigid (at least perceived that way) bio-security, they have SHB.

 

[Newbeeneil]

Listening to the arguments on here I'm swayed by the fact that this is a purely commercial decision to import bees from this area. As several say there are other areas (probably not as lucrative) from which bees could be imported without such a negative reaction or risk.
I feel that Bee Equipment are unnecessarily adding to possible pest import problems and as such would take the same stance as madasafish

:

If you do decide to go ahead, Ii is unlikely I will buy anything from you in the future..

Edit. Just a thought..... if this venture does happen and SHB is found in the UK,Bee Equipment is likely to be the target of beekeepers even it it is found in the end that it's entry point was via olive trees or such like.

 

[SDM]

Edit. Just a thought..... if this venture does happen and SHB is found in the UK,Bee Equipment is likely to be the target of beekeepers even it it is found in the end that it's entry point was via olive trees or such like.

Final destination of imported packages is known, so it would be apparent quickly if imported bees were the source. Say for example, the beetles were discovered near a nursery importing from italy or a port importing fruit from infected countries( as in the case of Italy's infestation). The likely source would be fairly obvious, so other than those ignorant of the facts , i see no reason for any backlash. That doesn't mean i dont question the sense in sourcing bees so unnecessarily close to a control area.

 

[Newbeeneil]

Final destination of imported packages is known, so it would be apparent quickly if imported bees were the source. Say for example, the beetles were discovered near a nursery importing from italy or a port importing fruit from infected countries( as in the case of Italy's infestation). The likely source would be fairly obvious, so other than those ignorant of the facts , i see no reason for any backlash. That doesn't mean i dont question the sense in sourcing bees so unnecessarily close to a control area.

I think your words are very interesting. Most hysteria is cause by people "ignorant of the facts"

 

[madasafish]

Final destination of imported packages is known, so it would be apparent quickly if imported bees were the source. Say for example, the beetles were discovered near a nursery importing from italy or a port importing fruit from infected countries( as in the case of Italy's infestation). The likely source would be fairly obvious, so other than those ignorant of the facts , i see no reason for any backlash. That doesn't mean i dont question the sense in sourcing bees so unnecessarily close to a control area.

Err once SHB is established anywhere in the UK, it is likely to spread quite rapidly if the climate and local conditions are suitable (eg a plant nursery distributing plants/trees across the UK).

So a discovery of SHB may not reflect the point of entry.. And the tracement period may be months.. (note the "may"s) or years..

I would not be so sanguine... all we need is a hot summer and several mild winters and lots of unwitting movement of infected soil...

 

[foghornleghorn]

Final destination of imported packages is known, so it would be apparent quickly if imported bees were the source. Say for example, the beetles were discovered near a nursery importing from italy or a port importing fruit from infected countries( as in the case of Italy's infestation). The likely source would be fairly obvious, so other than those ignorant of the facts , i see no reason for any backlash. That doesn't mean i dont question the sense in sourcing bees so unnecessarily close to a control area.

There is a lot of migratory beekeeping in Italy. Not unusual for beekeepers to move south to get a headstart in spring.
It's very much in the Italian officials interest to make sure that any spread northwards is limited as much as possible. Probably not as much security to monitor bees moving towards Sicily.
The producer of the packages/queens has been exporting bees for a longtime and has about 7,000 mating nucs in operation. If shb was within 50km of his business, it would be shut down overnight. It's not really in their interest to be too close.

 

[For want of a better word]

There is a lot of migratory beekeeping in Italy. Not unusual for beekeepers to move south to get a headstart in spring.
It's very much in the Italian officials interest to make sure that any spread northwards is limited as much as possible. Probably not as much security to monitor bees moving towards Sicily.
The producer of the packages/queens has been exporting bees for a longtime and has about 7,000 mating nucs in operation. If shb was within 50km of his business, it would be shut down overnight. It's not really in their interest to be too close.

OR British beekeepers for that matter!

 

[sipa]

I emphasis “ Package bees” to avoid any confusion we will NOT be importing Nucs of bees on frames. The nuc setup is done in our own apiaries using only equipment prepared by us.

OK, so not importing bees on frames is better, not perfect.

Regarding the nucs and quoting from the website, Italian bees "Overwintered and available from early April" doesn't quite add up.

Where is the time allowed for establishment, brood nest development etc before resale ?

 

[Ian123]

Adds up fine they are just overwintered in Italy!! The time for them to become established and ready for going to the customer will be down to them and dependant on weather maybe the use of drawn comb and feed. I doubt any half decent set up is going to send them out on half drawn frames. Now I know of 1 that would have done that in the past!! But as there’s no issue to speak of why are you trying to find 1?

 

[Ian123]

That’s also part of the issue it’s not in there interest for it to be found!! Rather like this https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...ch-mad-cow-disease-cases-went-undetected.html

 

[CharlieL]

Hi everyone, thank you for the replies to the statement from Patrick, I have let him know about the feedback. As the conversation is moving very quickly we will not be able to respond further for now, but I will post updates after Patrick's visit to Italy. If anyone would like any specific questions answered you can email us via our website and we'll get back to you.

 

[Fusion_power]

( just look at how quickly it covered the US)

SHB covered the U.S. because of unrestricted transportation, mostly of bees by beekeepers. I personally saw SHB move over 100 miles in just 2 years. This occurred between 2004 and 2006 when SHB was first found in eastern Alabama and was then found in western Alabama 2 years later. The outbreak in eastern Alabama could be traced to transport of pollination colonies on a major highway. I don't have to ask how they moved to western Alabama. Beekeepers were involved. Also, don't forget that adult mature beetles are NOT the only way they can be moved. All it takes is a few beetle eggs in hive debris and a beekeeper cleaning up old equipment to transport them to a new location. Do NOT presume that SHB move only a few km per year!

 

[sipa]

Adds up fine they are just overwintered in Italy!! The time for them to become established and ready for going to the customer will be down to them and dependant on weather maybe the use of drawn comb and feed. I doubt any half decent set up is going to send them out on half drawn frames. Now I know of 1 that would have done that in the past!! But as there’s no issue to speak of why are you trying to find 1?

Well, no it doesn't add up. They are offering delivery or pickup of the (Italian) nucs early April...
The packages don't ship from Italy untill early April so I don't see how the timings work.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Well, no it doesn't add up. They are offering delivery or pickup of the (Italian) nucs early April...
The packages don't ship from Italy untill early April so I don't see how the timings work.

calling a package made up early April 'overwintered' is stretching the imagination a wee bit too far

 

[Michael Palmer]

Happy Thanksgiving to you, Mr Palmer and any others from Stateside who drop in here from time to time

Thanks you old, long in the tooth Walrus. Have another piece of pie.