Heads up re Amm from Greece

[foghornleghorn]

So the bottom line is, you imported non-local bees (similar for FogHornLegHorn and his Buckfasts) and the crosses were aggressive.

And everyone else in the area with local bees finds their bees are suddenly a lot more aggressive.

Ever wondered why the BBKA advises against using non-local strains?

Please consider your neiighbours.

It was the queens I imported which were aggressive, they didn't get the chance to have daughters. But other people on here seem to have had a good experience of the same queens

 

[B+.]

It was the queens I imported which were aggressive, they didn't get the chance to have daughters. But other people on here seem to have had a good experience of the same queens

It sounds like something went wrong somewhere. Did you try contacting your supplier to find out what happened?

 

[Stiffy]

[QUOTE

But as for black bees...well the opinions of a person I respect has said that the ones best placed to be of interest are in the wilder parts of SW Britain...and he specifically highlighted Cornwall.

My biggest beefs with black bees.......
Poor disease resistance.
Increased management load (can run fewer of them)
Uncertainty of temperament (nice some days..others not)
Modest (albeit relatively reliable) productivity.[/QUOTE]

Exactly my experience, too needy to be used for production hives and only suited as a whim of a few beeks
S

 

[mbc]

[QUOTE

But as for black bees...well the opinions of a person I respect has said that the ones best placed to be of interest are in the wilder parts of SW Britain...and he specifically highlighted Cornwall.

My biggest beefs with black bees.......
Poor disease resistance.
Increased management load (can run fewer of them)
Uncertainty of temperament (nice some days..others not)
Modest (albeit relatively reliable) productivity.

Exactly my experience, too needy to be used for production hives and only suited as a whim of a few beeks
S[/QUOTE]

Too needy is the opposite of what I'd call natives, pre-varroa round here most old school "beekeepers" barely paid their bees any attention whatsoever beyond nicking honey at the end of the season.

 

[B+.]

Too needy is the opposite of what I'd call natives, pre-varroa round here most old school "beekeepers" barely paid their bees any attention whatsoever beyond nicking honey at the end of the season.

I knew a lot of old beekeepers like that. It was the frame of mind they had, not because they had mellifera. They didn't. They were just local mongrels. It only really changed because of varroa. If you didn't treat, you lost your bees so let-alone beekeepers really just fizzled out.

 

[Into the lions den]

Exactly my experience, too needy to be used for production hives and only suited as a whim of a few beeks
S

Too needy is the opposite of what I'd call natives, pre-varroa round here most old school "beekeepers" barely paid their bees any attention whatsoever beyond nicking honey at the end of the season.[/QUOTE]

Not sure I quite read 'too needy' in the same way you do. The fact let alone beekeepers were able to exist pre varroa and just take honey from time to time is a thing from a bygone age.....an age when ignorance of disease was tolerable, and swarms arriving in your neighbours gardens or chimneys was not a thing that bothered the keeper. You did not go into the bees much, so their temperament to you, the keeper, was of only passing importance.

However.......

These are different times.

You mention your experience of them matches an earlier statement of mines about the good being very good but many were non achievers for a variety of reasons (mostly instability and over splitting to prevent or reduce swarming, but other reasons to). The way I see the term 'needy' being used was the level of beekeeper attention they needed to achieve improved results and limited the length of the less productive tail. I did not read it as needing feeding more or the likes.

We are trying (at least in my field) to have a manageable and viable pool of livestock and we use bees that give us a good balance between the inputs (work, materials, feeds and medications) and returns (honey harvest). (Nucs and queens is a sideline). There is a fundamental split between those who keep bees and need or seek a return, and those to whom it is essentially a conservation project. Our needs and aims are different and there is no way that I can achieve what I want with a bee whose main claim to fame is that it can survive unaided in our environment. You don't turn your sheep or cattle or pigs loose and only use those who survive unaided. Husbandry is essential in managing animals of all types and bees are no different so we have to use bees that respond to our care and have a high proportion of successful ones.

You will for sure find a significant uplift in your own stock simply by the cull the bad and breed from the good method, but with a large local drone pool and open mating there is only so far you can get before the incremental improvements are matched by the negatives coming in from outside.

We use 2 lines of Amm type in Jolanta's programme right now, but clients are not so fond of them as even these which are relatively gentle are a bit more spicy than the carnica or buckfast types. J5 has proven too swarmy and awkward about migration, and has been kicked out, so looking for a good Amm line to put in its place. The Scottish lines I have seen all have real drawbacks or faults that make them a backward step, so looking elsewhere.

Plus...letalone beekeeping of potentially swarmy bees of uncertain temperament is, in todays world, socially irresponsible, and liable to get you into issues with your neighbours. You need bees that can be effectively run without having a detrimental effect on people who have the fortune/misfortune to be close to your hives.

...and gentle bees achieve that and also take up so much less of your time to examine.

 

[sipa]

If you want to run a substantial number of colonies then you need bees that have traits compatible with your aims.
For instance, bees with a low swarming index can double the numbers you can manage properly.

 

[kevrhcfag]

Often on here the shout goes up to buy a new queen as an answer to all that particular beekeepers prayers. Often the advice is well founded.

However the newer beekeepers and some of the not so new beekeepers need to bear in mind that not all the queens are the same or whatever flavour, you get some very good ones mostly average with the traits that the breeder wanted showing through and some bad ones, just like people who buy racehorses they hope its another Shergar but don't really expect it to be.

Getting a duffer is a big deal if you only have 1, 2 or so hives, not such a big deal if you have a fair few. Its doesn't make all that particular race bad.

Then there are the people who haven't a clue what a decent queen is like, because the bees are always like that etc.

 

[B+.]

Then there are the people who haven't a clue what a decent queen is like, because the bees are always like that etc.

That's easily remedied: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGZ0ZmN-W8M

 

[Poly Hive]

I must be missing the point here. The video proves/shows what?

PH

 

[B+.]

I must be missing the point here. The video proves/shows what?

Docile bees, stable on the comb. No running for the corners. Good laying pattern (although you can't really see it very clearly in the video).
She produced a double Langstroth brood and 3 full Langstroth deeps of honey. The colony remained calm all season even when inspected in bad weather (i.e. during the BBKA Bee Breeders assessment there was a thunderstorm and not one bee flew up at us)
That video was taken at the start of the season. I have since completed all the tests and, I am sure she'll score very highly.

 

[Swarm]

ITLD,
Your list of beefs with Amm are all things that could be improved via a focused breeding program, the likes of which carnica have had the luxury of?

 

[For want of a better word]

To quote ILTD
You will for sure find a significant uplift in your own stock simply by the cull the bad and breed from the good method, but with a large local drone pool and open mating there is only so far you can get before the incremental improvements are matched by the negatives coming in from outside.

Hence massive drone flooding from Amm drone supply colonies ( also good honey producers on double brood and very much just managed) within an isolated ( as far as isolated can go on UK mainland)
And AI.....

Yeghes da

 

[Quis Custodiet]

ITLD,
Your list of beefs with Amm are all things that could be improved via a focused breeding program, the likes of which carnica have had the luxury of?

BIBBA have had a focused breeding programme since the early 1960's, so has breeding groups in Southern Ireland. There has been campaigns of hate directed against those who dare keep bees of other types and still the DNA results are disastrous and unable apparently to be published.

 

[Swarm]

I can't take that statement seriously. Do you honestly see a comparison? And then the rest of your post is just more of the usual.

 

[foghornleghorn]

It sounds like something went wrong somewhere. Did you try contacting your supplier to find out what happened?

I did contact the breeder, the response was more or less "oh right". They never seemed to settle here, maybe they would have been lovely bees if they stayed closer to the Mediterranean

 

[psafloyd]

I wouldn't import queens. Much rather have something local.

I bought one of these queens in the Spring and put her in a single brood which I built up to a double Nat brood.

I had ma doots ye ken aboot the tewmperment from the 8/10 frames of brood mark.

Today I was inspecting this and that the same as I did yesterday and nary a sting. Temp 25C, nectar about as evidenced by the other colonies and all in all a perfect day for a wee peep.

I lifted the CB and they buzzed me a bit and no evidence of much happening in there so not impressed. I was not using smoke as nothing over the two days needed it. Ha! Super off and boom I was blinded by the bees on my veil and thank goodness I wear a plastic hat under it as the weight of them would have meant a very nasty stinging to my ears and nose. They went berserk! I closed up and retreated as there is a path that some dog walkers use quite close. So what to do now?

I need to find a site to park them up while I de-queen as they are a public liability at the moment.

So if you are tempted to buy Amm from Greece, on the basis of this lot my sage and profound advice is DON'T.

PH

 

[mbc]

ITLD,
Your list of beefs with Amm are all things that could be improved via a focused breeding program, the likes of which carnica have had the luxury of?

Exactly, I believe amm is lagging in the breeding stakes but only because it's never had the resources of centrally funded national institutions put behind developing it.
Enthusiastic individuals or groups of amateurs can't quite make the same headway as universities and the like but I'm convinced we'll see great strides being made with Amm. The potential is definitely there, it's just a case of trying to lift the mean closer to the boomers.

 

[B+.]

Exactly, I believe amm is lagging in the breeding stakes but only because it's never had the resources of centrally funded national institutions put behind developing it.
Enthusiastic individuals or groups of amateurs can't quite make the same headway as universities and the like but I'm convinced we'll see great strides being made with Amm. The potential is definitely there, it's just a case of trying to lift the mean closer to the boomers.

Didn't LASI base it's, so called, "hygienic" line on A.m.m.?

 

[Finman]

.
Why don't you bring AMM from Norway. They might be harsh bees.
Half of their bees might be AMM. Their main yield is heather