Heads up re Amm from Greece

[Quis Custodiet]

Utter balderdash. You were corrected on this point six months ago: https://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=581098&highlight=nihbs#post581098

It is increasingly apparent that you are one of the few people I have ever encountered who orchestrates a campaign of "hate".

First and foremost I do not hate any one and to claim that I do is totally untrue. I am however repelled by the individuals with hidden agendas and / or commercial ambitions, who to achieve those ends deliberately mislead the gullible and the uninformed (i.e. beginners and novice beekeepers). Black phenotype bees, which are very often Buckfast F2 or F3, especially in the Munster region, are sold as native bees by "reputable" breeders! The native AMM bee will barely fill a national broodbox or a brood box of a CDB hive. In fact the "vernacular" hives used in AMM areas in western Europe are about the same size too. Those who have double brood boxes, box and a half, commercials, ten supers etc, cannot possibly have native bees.
Hive burnings, threats of violence against people and property, police being called for assistance, are all facts of life unfortunately. There is plenty of room on the Island of Ireland for everyone and beekeepers were able to live in peace until some people got others to preach hate for them. PAX.

 

[B+.]

On the other hand, you could join a foreign club, use their foreign queens and take advantage of the years of work?

I did. I'm a member of BeeBreed-NL and Arbeitsgemeinschaft Toleranzzucht (AGT - the German varroa tolerance working group). I'm also a member of Bedfordshire BKA and North-Bucks (so I get BBKA membership bundled in).
Prior to that, I used carnica from Institut für Bienenkunde Celle (both island and Mountain mated)... I could go on...
My point is, I have many years experience with carnica (using and breeding). I have benefited from other peoples work. I'll be the first to admit it (who among us hasn't?). However, I hope to be able to return the favour next year with semen from drones produced by 55-2-70-2016 and her daughters. I'm also part of the group testing the Dutch line (which was mated on the German island of Wangerooge this year). This is what REAL bee breeding is - not the simple rearing of mongrels that the BBKA are promoting.

 

[Finman]

.
When I started beekeeping 55 years ago, first I learned, that local beekeeping is not best in the world.

If it is not best, how heck it would have best bees!

 

[Swarm]

I did. I'm a member of BeeBreed-NL and Arbeitsgemeinschaft Toleranzzucht (AGT - the German varroa tolerance working group). I'm also a member of Bedfordshire BKA and North-Bucks (so I get BBKA membership bundled in).
Prior to that, I used carnica from Institut für Bienenkunde Celle (both island and Mountain mated)... I could go on...
My point is, I have many years experience with carnica (using and breeding). I have benefited from other peoples work. I'll be the first to admit it (who among us hasn't?). However, I hope to be able to return the favour next year with semen from drones produced by 55-2-70-2016 and her daughters. I'm also part of the group testing the Dutch line (which was mated on the German island of Wangerooge this year). This is what REAL bee breeding is - not the simple rearing of mongrels that the BBKA are promoting.

That is my point though B+ how far along would your breeding be had you opted for Amm? The sub species has had pretty poor treatment IMO and still getting it so it would seem

 

[B+.]

That is my point though B+ how far along would your breeding be had you opted for Amm? The sub species has had pretty poor treatment IMO and still getting it so it would seem

I was a member of BIBBA for quite some time. Despite everything I did, I was unable to get A.m.m. stock. Several people claimed to have them but I never even saw one. Even then, I sensed something wasn't right. I left, convinced they were a myth. When I tendered my resignation, two of the senior bods attempted to cajole me into staying. The attitude was; you have to admit that you were wrong and we are right.
I distinctly remember sitting in a local cafe with Pim Brascamp and he asked me why I wanted to join BeeBreed. I told him that BeeBreed offered a rational approach. That was completely absent (and still is) in the UK. I have learned a huge amount since then.
To answer your question directly: I'd be frustrated and no further forward.

 

[Quis Custodiet]

The Galtee Bee Breeders in Southern Ireland have been in existence since circa 1990. The have a remote breeding area; a valley perhaps 10 or 15 miles x 7 or 10 miles, access to every AMM colony in Ireland, breeding facilities including II, various significant grants and subsidies from the national government and the EU, no shortage of skilled beekeepers to implement their ideas, in fact it is impressive the effort that has been expended. They are closely allied to BIBBA and like that association it does not seem to have progressed very much.

 

[mbc]

First and foremost I do not hate any one and to claim that I do is totally untrue.

However, to claim that you're one of the few people orchestrating a campaign of hate is on the money from what I've read.
The Galtee group has and is doing great work, I've met a few of them and listened to a few presentations at various events by members of the MacGiollacoda family and they've all struck me as charming and proffesional in their approach to bees, long may they continue their good work and shame on you for disparaging them unnecessarily.

 

[Teemore]

First and foremost I do not hate any one and to claim that I do is totally untrue. I am however repelled by the individuals with hidden agendas and / or commercial ambitions, who to achieve those ends deliberately mislead the gullible and the uninformed (i.e. beginners and novice beekeepers).

You call for a truce and assert repulsion at those with the characteristics above. You should take a very close look at exactly what you have been posting on this forum in terms of honeybees, social behaviour and regional politics.

 

[Teemore]

You may not know my history Martinl.

I worked with AMM back in the 80's and 90's running some 60 to 80 stocks over 10 years and some of them were very good indeed on the quiet spectrum and some were not so good but nothing out of the normal range.

What kicked off this thread was seriously bloody dangerous awful bees. I am not talking the odd 20 or 100 stings I am talking hundreds and every other vice known. Runny clumpy following blah blah blah... utter shite in fact.

Certainly not bees for beginners or for that matter the majority of hobbyists.

PH

PH - sorry for hijacking the thread.... I and others should thank you for highlighting a problem.

Maybe you should modify your smoker fuel: http://www.independent.ie/regionals/sligochampion/news/cannabis-plant-grower-to-stop-35371988.html

 

[DanBee]

The native AMM bee will barely fill a national broodbox or a brood box of a CDB hive. In fact the "vernacular" hives used in AMM areas in western Europe are about the same size too. Those who have double brood boxes, box and a half, commercials, ten supers etc, cannot possibly have native bees.

I accept that you are in Ireland where things may be different, but this is one of the myths of AMM that is still actively propagated in the UK, even by prominent BIBBA members.

Strains from the less well-favoured parts of the British Isles should do well, i.e. winter safely, gather honey well and swarm litte, when confined to 10 or 11 BS broodcombs by a queen excluder. If the bees are allowed free range they would not normally place brood in more than 14 BS broodcombs ... Inbred stocks commonly show less vigour than this, but regain prolificacy on outcrossing with another native strain. There is no point in looking for a bee which is less prolific than needed to fill one National or Smith broodbox.

14 BS broodcombs of brood is double brood in my book. Beowulf Cooper effectively set the breed standard by his observations, but now we hear even from BIBBA members the mantra of "one brood box good, two brood box bad"... why?

 

[mbc]

I accept that you are in Ireland where things may be different, but this is one of the myths of AMM that is still actively propagated in the UK, even by prominent BIBBA members.



14 BS broodcombs of brood is double brood in my book. Beowulf Cooper effectively set the breed standard by his observations, but now we hear even from BIBBA members the mantra of "one brood box good, two brood box bad"... why?

Indeed, mine often need double brood in their first full season and brood and a half is a common format round here though I don't like it myself.
Let the boxes fit the bees rather than trying to fit bees into preconceived idea of what box/boxes they should go in.

 

[Poly Hive]

Certainly I have known AMM to fill pretty close to 18 BS frames in both a double BB and a single.

Yes you read that right as I bought two home made (as they all were) Glen hives from a gentleman who had 100 of them in his back garden located at Dinnet on Royal Deeside. The brood boxes took 20 frames I think it was and he at the time had extended his house and ran his car off the heather honey he sold to Fortnum and Mason.

The hives had a date of 1944 on them as he had made them whilst on leave from the Navy.

I too am an ex member of BIBBA and a very disappointing organisation they were. I have posted times what happened when they were shown good samples of AMM. They buggered off back down south and were never heard from again!!!!

PH

 

[foghornleghorn]

I accept that you are in Ireland where things may be different, but this is one of the myths of AMM that is still actively propagated in the UK, even by prominent BIBBA members.



14 BS broodcombs of brood is double brood in my book. Beowulf Cooper effectively set the breed standard by his observations, but now we hear even from BIBBA members the mantra of "one brood box good, two brood box bad"... why?

The Irish ones are capable of that too, the problem here is only the most unproductive black bees can be considered amm and only good buckfast bees can be considered buckfast.

 

[Beefriendly]

Certainly I have known AMM to fill pretty close to 18 BS frames in both a double BB and a single.

I still have one of the Galtree Amm queens that has done that for me for three years running, she is still going strong!...honey gathering for a colony of that size is very disappointing in comparison to other hives in the same apiary and there for me lies their big problem.
Great bees but not been bred (yet) for honey gathering, more for purity....

 

[Finman]

I still have one of the Galtree Amm queens that has done that for me for three years running, she is still going strong!...honey gathering for a colony of that size is very disappointing in comparison to other hives in the same apiary and there for me lies their big problem.
Great bees but not been bred (yet) for honey gathering, more for purity....

Why you keep such hive. To get black hybrids with poor forager? IT does not sound breeding.

IT does not take much time when I squeeze poor queens, what ever race. I look 2 months. Not 3 years.

 

[Beefriendly]

Why you keep such hive.

Beekeeping is my hobby and I enjoy keeping different types of bees. It allows me to make genuine comparisons between different strains of bees rather than wild assumptions based on hearsay.

 

[Finman]

Beekeeping is my hobby and I enjoy keeping different types of bees. It allows me to make genuine comparisons between different strains of bees rather than wild assumptions based on hearsay.

But three years same queen?

 

[Quis Custodiet]

But three years same queen?

Finman, as Beefriendly said he keeps bees out of interest and not for commercial reasons. It is his prerogative to have whatever bees he chooses and good luck to him. I have heard of other queens similar to the one he describes.

 

[Finman]

Finman, as Beefriendly said he keeps bees out of interest and not for commercial reasons. .

Such toy hive.

I almost quessed that he is not commercial with his 30 hives.

 

[Poly Hive]

My queens would go two years and usually sup on the heather at year two or three.

Had some decent heather takes too. Two or three supers was not at all uncommon. Average from memory would have been about 45 lbs of heather which when I rattle the calculator says a ton so about right. Some years a good bit more but not that many years below that figure.

PH