Heads up re Amm from Greece

[mbc]

Didn't LASI base it's, so called, "hygienic" line on A.m.m.?

I believe so, not quite the long standing well resourced and meticulously implemented breeding program I had in mind though.

 

[mbc]

.
Why don't you bring AMM from Norway. They might be harsh bees.
Half of their bees might be AMM. Their main yield is heather

I'm not sure they'd be compatible with the local drones, similarly I haven't been tempted by amm from Scotland, Ireland, France or the Isle of Man either.
"Insular" was a word used to describe my attitude to wanting to improve the bees already here, perhaps I shouldn't argue with that description.

 

[B+.]

I believe so, not quite the long standing well resourced and meticulously implemented breeding program I had in mind though.

Would you care to elaborate?
The only programme of this type that I am aware of is BeeBreed (www.beebreed.eu).
I'm curious about the "boomers" term you used. What does this mean? If it means yield, what qualifies as a "boomer"? What about the other traits desired by beekeepers? How do these figure in your vision?
You'd need a homogeneous population to do the statistical analysis necessary for comparison. I don't believe the "local bee" satisfies this requirement.
Next, you'd need to test the population. There is always a dispersion about the mean, with 68% of all values lying within 1 standard deviation of the mean, 95% within 2 and 99.7% within 3. That means, the very best performers would be (100-99.7 = 0.3 / 2 = 0.15% in a normal distribution) 0.15% of the population. That's quite a small number of "boomers". You'd certainly raise the mean if you only propagated from this small group, but, you'd need a reliable pedigree and controlled mating to ensure that inbreeding was kept under control.
What does "mean" mean? If you take a straightforward arithmetic mean of all values for the population you'd only have the mean in that year. Some years are better for bees than others. How do you know that you're comparing the mean in one year with a comparable mean in the following year? You can't. That's why you have to use a moving average (BeeBreed uses a 5-year moving average). You'd need a very large population to do this. You'd also need a huge band of dedicated researchers to complete all the work

 

[Finman]

I'm not sure they'd be compatible with the local drones, similarly I haven't been tempted by amm from Scotland, Ireland, France or the Isle of Man either.
"Insular" was a word used to describe my attitude to wanting to improve the bees already here, perhaps I shouldn't argue with that description.

I agree. Greece is better, even if it does not have Black Bees AMM.

Do you know where pen- insula of Norway is?

Norway is full of insulas.

.

 

[madasafish]

I'm not sure they'd be compatible with the local drones, similarly I haven't been tempted by amm from Scotland, Ireland, France or the Isle of Man either.
"Insular" was a word used to describe my attitude to wanting to improve the bees already here, perhaps I shouldn't argue with that description.

Our Association obtained 4 queens from Colonsay.. AMM.

They proved highly susceptible to varroa - Colonsay being free of the mite - and bad tempered bees.

Not an advertisement I'd want for AMM.

 

[Quis Custodiet]

.
Why don't you bring AMM from Norway. They might be harsh bees.
Half of their bees might be AMM. Their main yield is heather

Finman; AMM bees from Norway have been imported into Ireland, they are native Irish bees now! In 2006 the was a DNA survey done here on "random stocks" (of carefully selected bees)! The unpublished results showed the gene pool to be very small and more recent testing showed the decline continuing. Bees were acquired abroad from various places on the continent, including Norway and believe it or not, Cornwall. We now have bees from Cornwall living happily in Ulster.....please don't ask whether they are Protestant or Catholic! The bees being presented as Native Irish Bees are very variable, usually very susceptible to chalk brood and no better at overwintering than Buckfast or Carniolans. Some are aggressive ....these are usually the ones who return some surplus, the more docile ones are typically very unproductive. Sad but that is how it is, I would genuinely like to see pure Irish AMM thriving somewhere, it would be a valuable genetic resource. But they are not to be found here or elsewhere.

 

[Finman]

Finman; AMM bees from Norway have been imported into Ireland, they are native Irish bees now! In 2006 the was a DNA survey done here on "random stocks" (of carefully selected bees)! The unpublished results showed the gene pool to be very small and more recent testing showed the decline continuing. Bees were acquired abroad from various places on the continent, including Norway and believe it or not.

That is interesting to know. We have in Finland very small group which try to,save Black Bee. Queens have brought from Sweden and perhaps Norway.

Varroa killed our numerous black bees. I had their mongrels 30 years.

I know that in small apiary inbreeding is biggest threat of those survivors. But nothing to be lost. It is one kind of hobby.

 

[Finman]

Finman; AMM bees from Norway have been imported into Ireland, they are native Irish bees now! In 2006 the was a DNA survey done here on "random stocks" (of carefully selected bees)! The unpublished results showed the gene pool to be very small and more recent testing showed the decline continuing. Bees were acquired abroad from various places on the continent, including Norway and believe it or not.

That is interesting to know. We have in Finland very small group which try to,save Black Bee. Queens have brought from Sweden and perhaps Norway.

Varroa killed our numerous black bees. I had their mongrels 30 years.

I know that in small apiary inbreeding is biggest threat of those survivors. But nothing to be lost. It is one kind of hobby.

If you do not import genes from outside, the stock will have its genetic diseases forever.
One is EFB and chalkbrood.... To breed AMM high hygienic... Oh dear...

.

 

[Teemore]

There has been campaigns of hate directed against those who dare keep bees of other types and still the DNA results are disastrous and unable apparently to be published.

Utter balderdash. You were corrected on this point six months ago: https://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=581098&highlight=nihbs#post581098

It is increasingly apparent that you are one of the few people I have ever encountered who orchestrates a campaign of "hate".

 

[MartinL]

I bought one of these queens

they are a public liability.

So if you are tempted to buy Amm from Greece, on the basis of this lot my sage and profound advice is DON'T.

PH

Surely they are known for their, more extreme temperament?

That's just what you get with pedigree & the more you cross them with something else the weaker the linage?

The greatest Race horses are "thoroughbreds" or in other words MONGERALS.

 

[B+.]

Ever wondered why the BBKA advises against using non-local strains?

Perhaps you could explain it to me. It makes no sense.
The local bees are aggressive, swarmy, unproductive and susceptible to disease.
I helped pilot the new BBKA Bee Breeders assessment in July. Instead of being an advocate for the certificates roll-out, they've made a critic (https://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=39682&page=2). Why? Because they spout the same narrow-minded "local" tripe that you've just done.
I wish people would open their eyes and see what's happening here. Is that what we want from the BBKA? I think not!

 

[Poly Hive]

You may not know my history Martinl.

I worked with AMM back in the 80's and 90's running some 60 to 80 stocks over 10 years and some of them were very good indeed on the quiet spectrum and some were not so good but nothing out of the normal range.

What kicked off this thread was seriously bloody dangerous awful bees. I am not talking the odd 20 or 100 stings I am talking hundreds and every other vice known. Runny clumpy following blah blah blah... utter shite in fact.

Certainly not bees for beginners or for that matter the majority of hobbyists.

PH

 

[Finman]

Perhaps you could explain it to me. It makes no sense.
The local bees are aggressive, swarmy, unproductive and susceptible to disease.
!

Why they are so...

Normal bees are normal bees, and they have their average features.
Even if you have how good ever hives, after each mating they slide to average bees. They vary normal inside Gaus curve.

They are swarmy, because reproduction it the main task of life.

They are agressive, because they protect themselves. That is why they have sting. They use it.

If you do not select stock all the time, it slides to natural habits.

That is natural beekeeping.

Selection by human is to select unnatural features, which are usefull to human.


Why to imagine something else. ... Yes you can.


Many people keep dangerous dogs, snakes and what ever. Who knows why.
.
Hybrids produce large scale of ofsprings. There miserable hives and very good hives. Swarming tendency is quite sure, because malfunction of reproduction will be healed in crossings.

 

[Finman]

.

What is local? Is it inside radius of 500 km or 300 or 1000 km.

I think that Dutch and British are as local as Irish. From England to France it is 20 miles.

 

[Hivemaker.]

.
What is local?

..... the nearest pub.

 

[Finman]

..... the nearest pub.

Drones are there?

Once our Finnish group went to English pub. Few guys came to ask, what are we doing there.... Sounded local.

 

[masterBK]

Finman: Being biologically educated I'm sure you know that island fauna and flora vary in many ways from that on a mainland as geographical isolation restricts gene flow and natural selection in each area will go at a different pace and in different directions. It may be 20 miles between England and France but still far enough to severely restrict gene flow between the two populations. Even the people speak differently!

 

[Swarm]

Our Association obtained 4 queens from Colonsay.. AMM.

They proved highly susceptible to varroa - Colonsay being free of the mite - and bad tempered bees.

Not an advertisement I'd want for AMM.

What a stupid thing to do, did your association expect them to thrive? I dare say they did become bad tempered.

I wouldn't touch a Colonsay queen purely for the varroa fact.

 

[Finman]

Finman: Being biologically educated I'm sure you know that island fauna and flora vary in many ways from that on a mainland as geographical isolation restricts gene flow and natural selection in each area will go at a different pace and in different directions. It may be 20 miles between England and France but still far enough to severely restrict gene flow between the two populations. Even the people speak differently!

Well, my apiary is 15 km from sea. I bought queens from inland 300 km from coast. I know that bees have same genes, are they on coast or on midland.

I am sure that your local native bees do not have developed different, where ever they are . Post office moves so fast you queens.

Beekeepers change their stocks quite often. Our bees are not from Ice Age. And no one speak here about local. IT has been continuous Gene flow from Italy or from Carnica countries.


Coast zone summer is always cooler than inland.

.

 

[Swarm]

Would you care to elaborate?
The only programme of this type that I am aware of is BeeBreed (www.beebreed.eu).
I'm curious about the "boomers" term you used. What does this mean? If it means yield, what qualifies as a "boomer"? What about the other traits desired by beekeepers? How do these figure in your vision?
You'd need a homogeneous population to do the statistical analysis necessary for comparison. I don't believe the "local bee" satisfies this requirement.
Next, you'd need to test the population. There is always a dispersion about the mean, with 68% of all values lying within 1 standard deviation of the mean, 95% within 2 and 99.7% within 3. That means, the very best performers would be (100-99.7 = 0.3 / 2 = 0.15% in a normal distribution) 0.15% of the population. That's quite a small number of "boomers". You'd certainly raise the mean if you only propagated from this small group, but, you'd need a reliable pedigree and controlled mating to ensure that inbreeding was kept under control.
What does "mean" mean? If you take a straightforward arithmetic mean of all values for the population you'd only have the mean in that year. Some years are better for bees than others. How do you know that you're comparing the mean in one year with a comparable mean in the following year? You can't. That's why you have to use a moving average (BeeBreed uses a 5-year moving average). You'd need a very large population to do this. You'd also need a huge band of dedicated researchers to complete all the work

On the other hand, you could join a foreign club, use their foreign queens and take advantage of the years of work?