Heads up re Amm from Greece

[Into the lions den]

So honey bees have been in southern Europe for millions of years (even uninterrupted by the last ice ages!)and you imagine there's still isolated suitable habitats for bees just waiting for an enterprising bee breeder to move his desired stock into with no influence from the indigenous drones?
I'm not entirely certain but my money is on that scenario being highly unlikely and even more unlikely if such places did exist they'd be used to satisfy the tiny uk queen bee demand.

Well that's your opinion.

Not where we are working at the moment BUT I scouted an area for such a project on the north side of the Pyrenees south of Lourdes a few seasons back. The area itself was not a great honey area, all full of maquis scrub and not a lot more. There was no major nectar flow in the area but lots of pollen plants. There was ZERO beekeeping of any consequence in a huge tract about 40Km across, just a few local amateurs and even they were kilometers apart.

That's is where we were going to set up a nuc production and queen mating station in partnership with a bee farmer from near Tarbes. So far so good until AFB was found in the local amateur bees and our chosen location was blighted. That one never got off the ground.

The guys we are working with now actively avoid dense populated areas for their mating projects, as their clientele is almost 100% north of the Alps, and they use breeding material from the bees suited to the destination territories, flood their mating areas with HUNDREDS of colonies, and one of them raises 90,000 cells a season and about 30% of those go on to be sold as mated queens. He is a Buckfast man and they particularly avoid ligustica, as even there it make their bees 'soft'.

There are many truly superb breeders out there with product that is perfectly well adapted to most UK circumstances. The idea that the words 'imported' and 'inferior' are interchangeable in beekeeping is total tosh. There is good...and bad....from all provenances. Locally adapted? Its largely a form of localised protectionism of the genetics of cherished pets. In my experience it is *mostly* nonsense unless you have a very specialised climate, like the wild west extremities or the northern isles. then you tend to have bees that get swarmy in softer climes, but as per an offer made elsewhere....I like to experiment with stock. If you think you have something special I'd love to give it a try.

 

[Into the lions den]

The idea that there are places which are good for queen mating in southern Europe which can be successfully drone flooded by bringing in foreign drone producing stocks is fanciful, all good areas already have their own bees which will dominate the mating in these areas for sure. Maybe I'm wrong but I doubt it.

As per the other post....these folk actively seek out suitable and isolated locations.....they are NOT sticking their breeding unit in the midst of great honey areas with their huge drone populations. That's is a business ending error to make. If you have a premium project why devalue it with lack of care about the drone side?

Dismissing it without even visiting or having someone else do so to check out the facts is just isolationism.

When some of the most authoritative bee books are little more than bee racism however, its little wonder so many people get all knotted up about things.

 

[Beefriendly]

Eedale valley in the Peak district is giving 60% pure matings between resident bees only. Link. And someone on this forum has his own nicely isolated mating site with around a 100% or so....
Not bad for an overpopulated UK.
There are many many areas and valleys in Southern Europe. Areas I've traveled through that spring to mind are valleys in the lesser populated southern Alps or the Italian Apennine mountains which run the length of country that can provide similar isolation. I'd be astonished of similar isolated sites don't exist in many other countries as well.
It's just a matter of knowing where, and I suspect local knowledge is a key factor.

 

[B+.]

Eedale valley in the Peak district is giving 60% pure matings between resident bees only.

60% pure? What does that mean?

 

[colinc]

60% pure? What does that mean?

I believe that is 40% mongrel, glass half empty and all that..... hehe


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Fusion_power]

60% pure? What does that mean?

Did you read the linked study?

 

[B+.]

Did you read the linked study?

60% pure means 100% not pure to me

 

[Beefriendly]

60% pure means 100% not pure to me

Read the paper I gave a link to,,,,,all will become clear. Perhaps I phrased it badly, but 60% of the mating's in an area with several beekeepers occurred between the bees within the same valley. These obviously gave 100% pure mating's within that population. Remember this in the UK!

 

[Longinus Sdapeze]

The most important thing when we buy queens is the right source. You can buy Buckfast and it to turned out Fastbusk for somebody in fact...The real macedonica is gentle, propolising quite and develop not so faster as carnica. Reduce the brood by necessity and wintering enough good.Everyone can buy queens from every one race from the wrong place. End when we buy only one queen it is ever a possibility it to be not enough good.Sometimes and not proper conditions of transportation could be a reason of some decline.I know two breeders of real macedonica - one in Greece and one in Macedonia.In sure thear are not plenty of real breeders of authentic and quality macedonica.

 

[oxnatbees]

So the bottom line is, you imported non-local bees (similar for FogHornLegHorn and his Buckfasts) and the crosses were aggressive.

And everyone else in the area with local bees finds their bees are suddenly a lot more aggressive.

Ever wondered why the BBKA advises against using non-local strains?

Please consider your neiighbours.

 

[Stiffy]

Eedale valley in the Peak district is giving 60% pure matings between resident bees only. Link. And someone on this forum has his own nicely isolated mating site with around a 100% or so....
Not bad for an overpopulated UK.
There are many many areas and valleys in Southern Europe. Areas I've traveled through that spring to mind are valleys in the lesser populated southern Alps or the Italian Apennine mountains which run the length of country that can provide similar isolation. I'd be astonished of similar isolated sites don't exist in many other countries as well.
It's just a matter of knowing where, and I suspect local knowledge is a key factor.

I can think of an area not too far from me which is varroa free,very isolated and would if anyone wishes to take some trouble provide an ideal mating station.
If I had the resources, which I dont, be using it myself
S

 

[Poly Hive]

Another fallacy.

I had ITLD's bees for near 10 years, and refreshed them I think twice and by refreshing I do not mean buying in a complete set of queens but buying in a couple to breed from.

Over that time I saw no or very little difference in the temperament despite living in a pretty densely populated bee area and the bees were so placid I gave up on lighting a smoker as it was totally un needed.

I wonder if others in the area saw in improvement courtesy of this?

PH

 

[Quis Custodiet]

So the bottom line is, you imported non-local bees (similar for FogHornLegHorn and his Buckfasts) and the crosses were aggressive.

And everyone else in the area with local bees finds their bees are suddenly a lot more aggressive.

Ever wondered why the BBKA advises against using non-local strains?

Please consider your neiighbours.

How can well bred, very docile bees cause indigenous mongrels to become aggressive? Is it not a case of the mongrels making the offspring of the docile bees aggressive?

 

[B+.]

Ever wondered why the BBKA advises against using non-local strains?

Please consider your neiighbours.

Please, let's not start talking about the BBKA and their strange ideas (https://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=39682).

 

[madasafish]

How can well bred, very docile bees cause indigenous mongrels to become aggressive? Is it not a case of the mongrels making the offspring of the docile bees aggressive?

I have had Carnie/Buckfast bees for 7 years. In that time they have mated between themselves and the local mongrels.Generally mine have kept on being gentle and non aggressive (with the single exception most years)... and the locals have continued on being horrible and aggressive..- as those who collect swarms locally can attest to. They were horrible in 2010 when I started and horrible now...,

So arguments that imports of bees from another area/country affect the mongrel gene pool in any measurable way are unfounded locally.. (If I kept 100+ colonies perhaps that might change but I have only 8...)

 

[mbc]

My view is that I want to breed my own bees and I want to open mate them and so I'm better off breeding bees which will breed true with the drones of the area. I'm under no illusion that all the drones my queens mate with are from my own bees or other indigenous bees, there are too many other beekeepers about, some who keep buckies, others carnie's and carnie crosses but still I reckon to dominate most of the drone population in the area my queens mate and there are plenty of other beekeepers in the locality who keep local bees so my best chance at making incremental improvements to my stock is to work with natives.
Itld inferred earlier in the thread that he'd like to try my bees if I thought they were something special and this got me thinking, they are to me obviously but would they be stand out bees in an operation used to highly bred carnie's? probably not. But that's not the point, native bees are in my opinion my best shot at a sustainable and improving effort to improve my stock in my area, I can understand people not having the same simple choice to make when the background drone population is even more mixed.

 

[For want of a better word]

I think we should bring back Neanderthals... after all we were probably responsible for their demise.
And the woolly mammoth - ditto.
And the dodo - ditto.

Just as sensible as bringing back AMM - in my views..

(runs away and hides...

Native black bees have been on these islands since the recession of the last glaciation therefore to be pedantic... we are not "bringing them back"

Other mainly Mediterranean sub species of honeybee have been introduced... some blame the Romans for bringing stinging nettles.. they may well also have brought in bees.. but my guess is they did not survive!

Yeghes da

 

[Finman]

Native black bees have been on these islands since the recession of the last glaciation therefore to be pedantic... we are not "bringing them back"

Other mainly Mediterranean sub species of honeybee have been introduced... some blame the Romans for bringing stinging nettles.. they may well also have brought in bees.. but my guess is they did not survive!

Yeghes da

If you mind to read about bee genome mapping after year 2003, you would learn something about bees evolution in Europe.

But it is better that you do not read, because we others know how the things truly are. Bkack bee has never been in Greece.
.
If you really want a black bee, take a Caucasian.
.

In Greece bees were before last Glasiation
100 000 y ago

.

 

[Into the lions den]

Itld inferred earlier in the thread that he'd like to try my bees if I thought they were something special and this got me thinking, they are to me obviously but would they be stand out bees in an operation used to highly bred carnie's?

I didn't infer it. I stated it, and it applied equally to all those on here with stock they think might be worth us taking a look at. I don't guarantee all will like the answer, but I am not so blinkered as to be blind to everything not in keeping with what we do now. Some on here know that as I have had a queen or two from them to trial and graft from to see how they cross locally.

Also....I am not a great fan of pure breeding in production hives. I want a large gene pool and a highly bred carnica unit we most definitely are not. We have SOME such bees. It goes against the grain of many but we like crossing so we need good lines all the time to keep feeding good genetics into the mix. Open mating here revert back to black or near black in about 3 generations, even if the starting stock is yellow. I have carnica, blacks and *certain* Buckfast lines, probably in that order of importance. Buckfast is such a variable beast that some types seem utterly unrelated to others. They can be very very good or very very useless and all shades in between.

We have tried Caucasians, Italians, and Greek cecropia. None of those were in any way an enhancement to what we already have and are long since discarded.

The number of colonies we run is a pretty decent test bed so I take most of what I hear with a pinch of salt.

But as for black bees...well the opinions of a person I respect has said that the ones best placed to be of interest are in the wilder parts of SW Britain...and he specifically highlighted Cornwall.

My biggest beefs with black bees.......
Poor disease resistance.
Increased management load (can run fewer of them)
Uncertainty of temperament (nice some days..others not)
Modest (albeit relatively reliable) productivity.

 

[mbc]

My biggest beefs with black bees.......
Poor disease resistance.
Increased management load (can run fewer of them)
Uncertainty of temperament (nice some days..others not)
Modest (albeit relatively reliable) productivity.

You once mentioned a higher proportion of duff ones to boomers(or something along that tack) as being a down side of amm and this struck a bit of a chord with me and is the way I'm trying to push my bees, ie. the good ones are very good but how to eliminate the unproductive tail, carefully choosing the mothers (and fathers as far as i can)and ruthless culling of anything below par at every stage of queen rearing is my current method.