Grafting

[Repwoc]

What success rate do people get when grafting into Nicot cups?

A week ago I grafted 20 larvae and got 9 'takes' (45%). After they were capped I removed them from my cell raiser and placed them into my incubator, then grafted 20 more larvae yesterday. I just checked and there are just 6 'takes' (30%). On Youtube videos folks seem to get many more 'takes' than I do, so I wondered if my grafting performance is poor or average or whatever.

 

[For want of a better word]

Graft tiniest larvae you can find... do 50 into a hoplessley queenless cell starter.
Easy to make a 50 hole panel to fit the cups into.... then once started into a queenright finisher.... remove sealed cells at approx 14 days and straight into a totally overloaded .... cramm the bees in 2 mugs per Keiler or similar using QMP strips helps to keep the bees in.

Expect 20% losses at each intervention!

Look at University of Gelph??? ( Canada) vids... @@@ will be along to correct I expect as there are so many experts on this forum!!

Yeghes da

 

[B+.]

Graft tiniest larvae you can find... do 50 into a hoplessley queenless cell starter.
Easy to make a 50 hole panel to fit the cups into.... then once started into a queenright finisher.... remove sealed cells at approx 14 days and straight into a totally overloaded .... cramm the bees in 2 mugs per Keiler or similar using QMP strips helps to keep the bees in.

Expect 20% losses at each intervention!

Look at University of Gelph??? ( Canada) vids... @@@ will be along to correct I expect as there are so many experts on this forum!!

Yeghes da

Do you really graft 50 into a National? Wow! I only graft 30 into a Langstroth.

 

[Repwoc]

I only graft 30 into a Langstroth.

And how many hits do you expect to get B+?

 

[Ian123]

A second batch of 24 just gone into a crammed single national brood. I normally find the second batch is better received and had a frame of young larvae in the graft/cell frame position for 24hrs before my grafting is done on the hive roof next door I will see results tomorrow. Results can vary for many reasons, why not try wax cups.

 

[Repwoc]

Expect 20% losses at each intervention!

So out of 50 grafts you expect to get 40 hits?

 

[Repwoc]

why not try wax cups.

Do you use wax cups?

 

[Ian123]

Yes many years ago I brought and tried nicot but having caged the queen and set up the bees removed all the larvae. So went back to grafting.

 

[Repwoc]

Yes many years ago I brought and tried nicot but having caged the queen and set up the bees removed all the larvae. So went back to grafting.

OK - I'm not trying to get the queen to lay in the cups, I am grafting into them.

I was just interested in other beeks' success rate of grafts to started cells, eg of the 24 grafts you submitted to the bees yesterday, how many do you expect to be accepted on avereage?

 

[Ian123]

Ok success varies weather, feed many things. I set this cell raiser up and did a batch a couple of days later. I had 14 out of 20 but this was rushed and done quickly outside and really they had not been left long enough. The second batch went in yesterday about the only thing not done well was grafting on the hive roof not ideal but i get enough. I’ll tell you tomorrow how it went. If I could figure out how to post a pic I would!! 18 or so would be nice.

 

[mbc]

So out of 50 grafts you expect to get 40 hits?

That would be about my success rate for accepted grafts, then I will usually cull any below the norm before placing in mating nucs and then a further 20% might not get mated satisfactorily.
The easiest way to raise standards I found is to cull anything dubious at the earliest opportunity.

 

[For want of a better word]

That would be about my success rate for accepted grafts, then I will usually cull any below the norm before placing in mating nucs and then a further 20% might not get mated satisfactorily.
The easiest way to raise standards I found is to cull anything dubious at the earliest opportunity.

50 grafts into a Paynes nuc box... seems crazy but it works.... Possibility that MBC and meself had the same teachers?

Grafting into a spot of Royal Jelly seems to assist success rate

Yeghes da

 

[mbc]

50 grafts into a Paynes nuc box... seems crazy but it works.... Possibility that MBC and meself had the same teachers?

Grafting into a spot of Royal Jelly seems to assist success rate

Yeghes da

Erm,,, I'd do about four bars of ten/twelve in a packed national double brood at peak season, seems about the limit for optimal cells with my bees.

 

[B+.]

And how many hits do you expect to get B+?

Everyone loses one every now and again. I'm no different.
I do things a little different to the conventional starter-finisher approach though. I'll use the same colony to raise the cells all the way to sealing. Then, I transfer them to an incubator until they emerge. Now, I rarely lose one in the incubator but I might lose the odd one or two in the cell raiser. This way means you get less throughput but, I feel, the cells suffer less disturbance.

 

[Ian123]

For any that a trying grafting if you think you’ve rolled/flipped the larvae forget it start again. If you can’t see a nicely positioned grub in the bottom of your cup or pulled it up the cell wall simply add another. Just a couple of tips that may get slightly better results. I’ve also just seen bbwear are now selling cell punches and frames. They used to be available years ago but went out of production. They are not bad for any doing small numbers and with a shaky hand or poor eyes.

 

[For want of a better word]

Erm,,, I'd do about four bars of ten/twelve in a packed national double brood at peak season, seems about the limit for optimal cells with my bees.

50 grafts...That's just for starter box.....

Finisher colonies ( Double brood Amm) only seem to handle around twenty started cells.... did read somewhere there is a forumula as to how many queens a colony can raise ??? Millar???

 

[B+.]

50 grafts...That's just for starter box.....

Finisher colonies ( Double brood Amm) only seem to handle around twenty started cells.... did read somewhere there is a forumula as to how many queens a colony can raise ??? Millar???

The method I use doesn't need a finisher colony. A single brood Langstroth box will nurse 30 grafts until they are sealed. Most of the time a well fed/well stocked queenless colony will accept them all. I don't know why more people don't do this. It is so much easier- particularly for people with fewer hives/less experience. At the end, I either give them another box of sealed brood that has been above excluders for 10 days, or, I break the colony up to make nucs. It couldn't be simpler!
You guys using the starter-finisher are making hard work for yourselves IMHO.

 

[Repwoc]

The method I use doesn't need a finisher colony. A single brood Langstroth box will nurse 30 grafts until they are sealed. Most of the time a well fed/well stocked queenless colony will accept them all. I don't know why more people don't do this. It is so much easier- particularly for people with fewer hives/less experience. At the end, I either give them another box of sealed brood that has been above excluders for 10 days, or, I break the colony up to make nucs. It couldn't be simpler!
You guys using the starter-finisher are making hard work for yourselves IMHO.

That's exactly what I am trying to do but with 20 grafts in a National, however most (~65%) of my grafts are rejected. I thought the last grafting session went a lot better than the first one, but fewer grafts were actually accepted.

 

[B+.]

That's exactly what I am trying to do but with 20 grafts in a National, however most (~65%) of my grafts are rejected. I thought the last grafting session went a lot better than the first one, but fewer grafts were actually accepted.

What is the food/pollen situation in that colony like? If they have a continuous supply AND a large population of nurse bees, it should work. This is how I've done it for quite a long time. They generally have a continuous supply of emerging workers too (lots of sealed worker brood that was above excluders for 9/10 days).
My guess is that you either damaged the larvae during grafting or you don't have enough nurse bees. At this time of year, nectar/pollen shouldn't be a problem. You might find Michael Palmers presentation at the NHS a couple of years ago useful

 

[Repwoc]

I think they have plenty of nectar, stores and pollen. I arranged for a frame of pollen/stores to be next to the frame of grafts. I've also been adding frames of sealed brood so they should have enough nurse bees. So it looks like it's my grafting that's the issue - guess I'll just need to keep trying