Front Cover of Welsh Beekeeper

[Beefriendly]

I can give you the results for North Yorkshire on local vs Amm vs Buckfast vs Buckfast F1's.
Not hard to figure out the results

 

[SDM]

Oops caught out! I'm not actually a wbka member, bfa is the only association I belong to and I believe I'm a bit of a "rare breeds" type within that.
I do remember reading the virtually unanimous agreement on local bees being best but I couldn't point you to the survey or poll or whatever it was, maybe someone who is a member could recall what I'm referring to, possibly it was a delegates vote at an AGM?

Might be nice if you knew what you were talking about next time you claim something is a "documented fact" dont you think ? Speaking personally, until today whether I agreed or disagreed with what you posted, I at least was sure you believed it.
Well I am a member and know of know such a poll.
So what were basically talking about is that Wally and Jenny Shaw plus friends and family ( plus a handful of their pets) decided that everyone else would agree to a stance they really didn't understand ( this is after all how the wbka has been run for the last decade or 2).
Beefriendly is dead right with the paper that started the "fashion" for local bees and I've had the pleasure of discussing 1 to 1 with one of the authors how it's been misused. Firstly, as mentioned, 'local' for the purpose of the study, meant moving sub species outside of that subspecies range. Which makes all of Northern Europe local to us. Also the study only tested 2 non local subspecies at each location. Any number of other subspecies may have outperformed the locals at any or all locations( plus as mentioned Buckfast were not tested). Lastly the study used untreated colonies, so it was basically a race to collapse from varroa which the locals won( in most cases) by a few days. In short the author agreed the study was being misused and that at best it "suggested" an advantage for the local sub species.
With this in mind are you still so certain that the vast majority of wbka members have expressed support for this and have any understanding of what is meant by it?

 

[mbc]

Might be nice if you knew what you were talking about next time you claim something is a "documented fact" dont you think ?
Well I am a member and know of know such a poll.
So what were basically talking about is that Wally and Jenny Shaw plus friends and family ( plus a handful of their pets) decided that everyone else would agree to a stance they really didn't understand ( this is after all how the wbka has been run for the last decade or 2).
Beefriendly is dead right with the paper that started the "fashion" for local bees and I've had the pleasure of discussing 1 to 1 with one of the authors how it's been misused. Firstly, as mentioned, 'local' for the purpose of the study, meant moving sub species outside of that subspecies range. Which makes all of Northern Europe local to us. Also the study only tested 2 non local subspecies at each location. Any number of other subspecies may have outperformed the locals at any or all locations( plus as mentioned Buckfast were not tested). Lastly the study used untreated colonies, so it was basically a race to collapse from varroa which the locals won( in most cases) by a few days. In short the author agreed the study was being misused and that at best it "suggested" an advantage for the local sub species.
With this in mind are you still so certain that the vast majority of wbka members have expressed support for this and have any understanding of what is meant by it?

I did write "I believe " waiting for someone to confirm or challenge it (well done SDM!) and I still believe it. I wasn't referring to the coloss paper but to a specific wbka reference I'd read, now you've challenged it maybe I should do the leg work to dig it out but I am rather busy this time of year so was hoping someone else might.

 

[maddydog]

I can give you the results for North Yorkshire on local vs Amm vs Buckfast vs Buckfast F1's.
Not hard to figure out the results

Depends whether we're talking stings or honey?

 

[BMH]

Might be nice if you knew what you were talking about next time you claim something is a "documented fact" dont you think ? Speaking personally, until today whether I agreed or disagreed with what you posted, I at least was sure you believed it.
Well I am a member and know of know such a poll.
So what were basically talking about is that Wally and Jenny Shaw plus friends and family ( plus a handful of their pets) decided that everyone else would agree to a stance they really didn't understand ( this is after all how the wbka has been run for the last decade or 2).
Beefriendly is dead right with the paper that started the "fashion" for local bees and I've had the pleasure of discussing 1 to 1 with one of the authors how it's been misused. Firstly, as mentioned, 'local' for the purpose of the study, meant moving sub species outside of that subspecies range. Which makes all of Northern Europe local to us. Also the study only tested 2 non local subspecies at each location. Any number of other subspecies may have outperformed the locals at any or all locations( plus as mentioned Buckfast were not tested). Lastly the study used untreated colonies, so it was basically a race to collapse from varroa which the locals won( in most cases) by a few days. In short the author agreed the study was being misused and that at best it "suggested" an advantage for the local sub species.
With this in mind are you still so certain that the vast majority of wbka members have expressed support for this and have any understanding of what is meant by it?

Also, the problem with a poll, if one were to exist, is that new beekeepers are so swayed by the myths that they are fed during their 'training' that the data is heavily skewed in favour of 'locally adapted bees'.

Around here its pretty bad. The newcomers who are taking the courses are told not to buy buckfast but there isnt anyone who can provide ANY AMM nucs (or very few). The newcomers are told the best way to populate their hives is to catch a local swarm, so they end up with a colony of no known heritage whatsoever, that could be carrying disease and is ridden with varroa.

What a right old mess.

Now if the 'locally adapted bee' is so much better, why isnt someone making sufficient nucs to meet the demand?

 

[Beefriendly]

Depends whether we're talking stings or honey?

Inversely proportional...the locals won that battle stings down....

 

[Murox]

Also, the problem with a poll, if one were to exist, is that new beekeepers are so swayed by the myths that they are fed during their 'training' that the data is heavily skewed in favour of 'locally adapted bees'.

Around here its pretty bad. The newcomers who are taking the courses are told not to buy buckfast but there isnt anyone who can provide ANY AMM nucs (or very few). The newcomers are told the best way to populate their hives is to catch a local swarm, so they end up with a colony of no known heritage whatsoever, that could be carrying disease and is ridden with varroa.What a right old mess. Now if the 'locally adapted bee' is so much better, why isnt someone making sufficient nucs to meet the demand?

Thats a truly awful picture to paint - why would would anyone in a position of knowledge/trust promote such foolishness ? The only reason I can think of would be some form of financial gain, so selfish hedonistic ideals.

 

[BMH]

Thats a truly awful picture to paint - why would would anyone in a position of knowledge/trust promote such foolishness ? The only reason I can think of would be some form of financial gain, so selfish hedonistic ideals.

I honestly dont understand it.

My friend did the basic beekeeper course last year.

I said I'd give him an F1 buckfast nuc for free to start him off and he very politely declined, saying that he wanted to wait for a swarm because they couldn't provide any AMM nucs at the moment. Wasnt the right weather apparently (this is LAST year in July!).

In the end, I caught a swarm and gave him that. They scraped through winter but they are vicious little things. Dark as anything though so hes happy!

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

 

[madasafish]

Also, the problem with a poll, if one were to exist, is that new beekeepers are so swayed by the myths that they are fed during their 'training' that the data is heavily skewed in favour of 'locally adapted bees'.

Around here its pretty bad. The newcomers who are taking the courses are told not to buy buckfast but there isnt anyone who can provide ANY AMM nucs (or very few). The newcomers are told the best way to populate their hives is to catch a local swarm, so they end up with a colony of no known heritage whatsoever, that could be carrying disease and is ridden with varroa.

What a right old mess.

Now if the 'locally adapted bee' is so much better, why isnt someone making sufficient nucs to meet the demand?

They can always buy AMM queens from John Getty.. They have an excellent reputation.

But as he is in N Ireland, they are hardly local....

 

[For want of a better word]

They can always buy AMM queens from John Getty.. They have an excellent reputation.

But as he is in N Ireland, they are hardly local....

Neither are "so called" Buckfast bees... from Phill the Greek or Kel the Dane or Fritz.. or... from anywhere else overseas!!!

Stupid pointless debate infested with the usual trolling!

Yeghes da

 

[SDM]

They can always buy AMM queens from John Getty.. They have an excellent reputation.

But as he is in N Ireland, they are hardly local....

Ironic isn't it that the loudest voices about local bees are more than happy to export them.

 

[SDM]

I did write "I believe " waiting for someone to confirm or challenge it (well done SDM!) and I still believe it. I wasn't referring to the coloss paper but to a specific wbka reference I'd read, now you've challenged it maybe I should do the leg work to dig it out but I am rather busy this time of year so was hoping someone else might.

Busy I can appreciate for sure. But it would be interesting to know who/how/when this became association policy.
Personally I'm as content with my status as odd one out in my association as you are with yours in the bfa.
Whilst I suppose the association doesn't need to validate it's statement on it's own magazine , it would be nice to know how the association came to that position.

 

[Murox]

Curious , I am just about to place an order with Mr Getty. Have not managed to find a good source of Amm elsewhere.

 

[Griffo]

Well yes and no. There is just as many local Taliban.

In the end of the day it all depends what area you are in and what your objectives are. One things for sure there are no local “native Kent” bees to be had (as far as I know).

Are you sure there isn't a native Kent Black Bee. Everywhere else seems to have one.

 

[birdsandbees]

I wasn't going to comment as is usual whenever Amm or native bees are mentioned it just descends into argument and sniping.

One thing that is always brought up is that dark bees are nasty and not productive.
well, mixed race dark bees can be but my near amm's are lovely and calm and produce more than enough Honey for my needs.

Also, why are bees always measured by honey crop? yes it's critical for those that rely on it for a living but as has been said before, you can site the same bees in two different places or in the same place in two different years and get huge variation in the crop, surely even poor Honey gatherers would out do Super bees if sited in the right place?

I am a relatively recent convert to 'natives' and I'm very happy with them, I don't keep bees to fill the garage with Honey buckets but they do a reasonable job regardless, maybe I keep near natives because I don't like the idea of them joining the ever growing list of extinct or endangered.
I will be using I.I at some point but so far drone flooding around 1/2 mile away from where my mating apiary is seems to be going reasonably well.

Availability is a huge issue and often queens come from a fair distance away but then it's common to reintroduce other animals to where they used to be under the banner of conservation, far better that than just breeding from local mutts pretending that they are something that they aren't which seems to be BIBBA advice.

Anyway, there it is, my thoughts on the whole thing, I'll await the replies telling me I'm talking testicles

 

[Murox]

..................edit...............Availability is a huge issue and often queens come from a fair distance away but then it's common to reintroduce other animals to where they used to be under the banner of conservation, far better that than just breeding from local mutts pretending that they are something that they aren't which seems to be BIBBA advice.

Seems that AMM are like hens teeth, very rare and certainly not easily available.
This is BIBBA advice ?

 

[maddydog]

Maybe if our Teutonic cousins took over BIBBA they might get somewhere?

 

[For want of a better word]

In your opinion

Fortunately we are all at liberty to have an opinion!

When I suggested that the best thing to do with a drone laying colony was to merge with another stronger queenright colony ..... I was shouted down by their incumbent Master Beekeeper... have not been to an association meeting since!

One can at the least vote with your feet.

Yeghes da

God... I hope it stops raining cats and stairods tomorrow..... getting on for fortnightly inspections.

 

[B+.]

Fortunately we are all at liberty to have an opinion!

When I suggested that the best thing to do with a drone laying colony was to merge with another stronger queenright colony ..... I was shouted down by their incumbent Master Beekeeper... have not been to an association meeting since!

One can at the least vote with your feet.

Yeghes da

God... I hope it stops raining cats and stairods tomorrow..... getting on for fortnightly inspections.

Not a particularly good recommendation in my experience. I had two of them come to examine me on bee breeding last year. Neither one of them understood what I was on about. As soon as I asked if they wanted to see my breeding records, they quickly changed the subject and asked lots of module 7 queen rearing questions. The whole experience left me very disappointed in the BBKA and their prejudices. As you said: you can always "vote with your feet!. I did (cancelled my membership of BBKA).

 

[For want of a better word]

Not a particularly good recommendation in my experience. I had two of them come to examine me on bee breeding last year. Neither one of them understood what I was on about. As soon as I asked if they wanted to see my breeding records, they quickly changed the subject and asked lots of module 7 queen rearing questions. The whole experience left me very disappointed in the BBKA and their prejudices. As you said: you can always "vote with your feet!. I did (cancelled my membership of BBKA).

Good for you Paul!

I now join as a "County Member" as £12 for the comic seems reasonable.... even if full of last centuries revamped beekeeping advice!!!

Chons da