Frame spacing and size of drones.

[user 20297]

It may well be relevant, but can we decide how? Increased muscle mass is not always a benefit, because the more there is, the more is required just to handle the additional mass. For similar reasons, speed may not have a direct correlation with muscle mass.

On the basis of no information whatsoever, I'd guess that in terms of being a successful drone, there may be a range of sizes that are well-suited to achieving that goal, and outside that range, whether larger or smaller, they're less likely to be successful.

James

Good point. But In many animals the size of the male is an important factor in determining mating success. You're right in that other factors are in play; some natural history studies have shown that luck, wile and guile can play a part in this with some creatures. But it seems likely that a stupid, quick drone will usually trump a smart drone with a more appealing and more average build.

 

[JamezF]

It's not so much about whether the relative sizes of drones means that they have better genetics. In a colony where a beekeeper considers the queen's genetics to be favourable or more favourable than those of another queen, all the drones in that colony, regardless of size, will carry the favoured genes. If its drones are also equipped so that they are better equipped physically than those from less favoured colonies, that will increase the chances of those genetics reaching another generation.

Absolutely so. The problem we have is that we possibly (or even probably) don't have a good understanding of what "best physically equipped" actually means in bee terms. And even if we did, could we know that it's always that way, or could it depend on individual circumstances?

James

 

[JamezF]

But it seems likely that a stupid, quick drone will usually trump an intellectual drone with a more appealing and average build.

I'd probably agree, but phrases such as "it seems likely" do set off alarm bells with the scientist in me. It's the kind of expression that's the precursor to many incorrect chains of reasoning (Though obviously sometimes it can be right, too.)

James

 

[Newbeeneil]

I suppose you could put a tack into each side bar? It’s more fiddling though.

Just use castellations

 

[JamezF]

castellations

For some reason, Roy Castle suddenly springs to mind, though you may need to be "of a certain age" to have any clue what I'm going on about.

"Castellations, they're what you need..."

James

 

[rolande]

I've previously commented on the use of foundationless frames resulting in higher levels of drone production in the early summer, something which @pargyle has disputed. Considering that historically most of my colonies have been on inch and half spacing could we finally have a possible explanation of our differing observations?

I'd also be interested in @Fusion_power's oppinion on this as he's an advocate of 32mm spacing.

@Erichalfbee asked about natural spacing earlier, I believe that it's claimed to vary within small parameters between different subspecies/strains within subspecies. For instance, Donald Sims (60 years with Bees) reported research that claimed one strain of carnica to be building brooding comb at 33mm centres (i think) in nature.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Where's Understanding Bees when you need him?

 

[Wilco]

Good point. But In many animals the size of the male is an important factor in determining mating success. You're right in that other factors are in play; some natural history studies have shown that luck, wile and guile can play a part in this with some creatures. But it seems likely that a stupid, quick drone will usually trump a smart drone with a more appealing and more average build.

There's also the factor of female choice when there's inter male competition and we'd need to know what characteristic is the basis of such competition if it's occurring. Do drones just bonk any queen in the DCA regardless of her thoughts on the matter or is there some way that the queen differentiates between drones and selects the mate. If so, what is this based on? Given there is some thought that bees can differentiate genetics of an egg WRT queen cells, is it possible that, if mate selection occurs, the queen is looking for something more subtle than the traits we humans instinctively think of as better for flying?

For example, if drone size and thus flying capabilities are so influenced by environment, it is not their genetics thus cannot be heritable, (in the simple sense), which means a queen mating with said drone gains no benefit for her future descendants.

 

[user 20297]

There's also the factor of female choice when there's inter male competition and we'd need to know what characteristic is the basis of such competition if it's occurring. Do drones just bonk any queen in the DCA regardless of her thoughts on the matter or is there some way that the queen differentiates between drones and selects the mate. If so, what is this based on? Given there is some thought that bees can differentiate genetics of an egg WRT queen cells, is it possible that, if mate selection occurs, the queen is looking for something more subtle than the traits we humans instinctively think of as better for flying?

For example, if drone size and thus flying capabilities are so influenced by environment, it is not their genetics thus cannot be heritable, (in the simple sense), which means a queen mating with said drone gains no benefit for her future descendants.

......but a queen, the one who produced the successful drones, does gain in that situation, because her genetics are perpetuated.

It's a very interesting point you made, to consider how the mating queen may differentiate and co-operate to be insemintated by particular drones.

It's all well above my pay-grade now and I had better retire from this before someone accuses me of thinking too much!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

it is relevant. The functionality of the drone being all about size...muscle-mass, speed, vigour of endophallus

I don't know, we have an ex miner up the road from us - John walk straight (so called because at less than five feet tall he never had to stoop when underground) but according to my uncle Danny the lampman he was 'hung like a Porthcawl donkey'

 

[Wilco]

......but a queen, the one who produced the successful drones, does gain in that situation, because her genetics are perpetuated.

It's a very interesting point you made, to consider how the mating queen may differentiate and co-operate to be insemintated by particular drones.

It's all well above my pay-grade now and I had better retire from this before someone accuses me of thinking too much!

But if this is happening, it's not the genetics of drone size that are being passed on as it would not a genetic factor causing the drones to be a different size so there's not going to be consistency of what's being selected for in genetic terms thus no selection pressure (unless there's a genetic basis for comb spacing in feral colonies: even then as so many UK hives are moveable frames using modern spacing, it seems unlikely such a basis would circumvent it).

 

[Boston Bees]

I don't know, we have an ex miner up the road from us - John walk straight (so called because at less than five feet tall he never had to stoop when underground) but according to my uncle Danny the lampman he was 'hung like a Porthcawl donkey'

But as further confirmation, could you ask him if he had success when chasing queens?

 

[Patrick1]

Personally, I start my drone rearing in March, I use a queen cage with drone foundation trap her until she has laid a fair amount then take out the queen cage and let the hive do the rest, ultimately the drones are reared on hoffman spaced frames, the mating usually goes well.

Lots of prep and careful selection of the very best queen helps.

 

[pargyle]

I've previously commented on the use of foundationless frames resulting in higher levels of drone production in the early summer, something which @pargyle has disputed. Considering that historically most of my colonies have been on inch and half spacing could we finally have a possible explanation of our differing observations?
.

It's an interesting debate but you are rather misconstruing what I said ... I think with foundationless frames the bees produce the level of drones that they want at all times of the year - they are not restricted by the cell impressions in foundation. Whether that is higher levels rather depends upon what you consider to be the norm. Generally, I find that drone brood in my foundationless colonies tends to be between 15% and 20% of the total brood area and yes as the colony moves into prime reproduction season the drone production is at the higher end - which is what you would expect.

I

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

they are not restricted by the cell impressions in foundation

I find my bees also produce drone cells to the level they require - they just ignore the impressions in the worker foundation and build the size they want.

 

[user 20297]

I don't know, we have an ex miner up the road from us - John walk straight (so called because at less than five feet tall he never had to stoop when underground) but according to my uncle Danny the lampman he was 'hung like a Porthcawl donkey'

I bet he was popular with all the Porthcawl queens, (and don't say that there weren't any!)

 

[user 20297]

But as further confirmation, could you ask him if he had success when chasing queens?

..beat me to it....it was an open goal.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I bet he was popular with all the Porthcawl queens, (and don't say that there weren't any!)

Uncle Danny was one

 

[pargyle]

I find my bees also produce drone cells to the level they require - they just ignore the impressions in the worker foundation and build the size they want.

See ... Bees will always do what they want to do ...

And I think drones are an important part of the colony. We don't really know much about what part they play in the colony overall ... the general beekeeping lore is that they are lazy spongers who just hang about waiting for an appropriate point to mate and in the meantime consume copious amounts of the beekeepers honey. Is this another beekeeping myth ?

Me ? Well I think there is a bit more to it than that - judging by the merciless way the majority of drones are chucked out at the end of the mating season if they were only there for mating purposes firstly, why over millennia have bees evolved to have around 20% of drones in the colony - Darwinism would suggest that this is a disproprtionate number for the task in hand. Secondly, why do the workers tolerate this number from early in the year until autumn if they don't serve some purpose as well as mating ?

We really don't know a lot of about drones ....

I know beekeepers who go out of thire way to destroy drone brood as they consider the drones detrimental to honey production and I always argue against this but,... I dont't have a lot of evidence to support my position.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I know beekeepers who go out of thire way to destroy drone brood

And then join in regurgitating the other strange theories some have to explain this mythical failed queen syndrome