Drone laying queen or laying workers?

[elainemary]

Checked a Nuc that I knew should be mated by now, with queen estimated to emerge 7 May and mated between 12-26 May.

Thought everything was fine, one egg per cell, on first frame, Q just getting laying, but then followed by 2 further frames of drone brood

Confused, as most cells had one egg but the odd one with two and off centre, like laying workers; but also queens just starting to lay can have more than one egg.

Brood pattern not as neat as a DLQ though. Seemed more haphazard. Had filled an extension Nuc box with honey / nectar. No eggs in this top box as had a queen excluder between. Maybe DLQ after all? Or would LWs only lay in the brood nest…? Seemed more agitated than I’d expect from a nuc.

This Nuc colony had a lot more flyers when I made it up than usual, as
had bled flyers to it that were surplus - could explain the defensiveness and the honey gathering, but sounded queenless but there again I shook bees off combs to take a good look

Laying workers I’ve seen before are really obvious with multiple eggs in cells and more defensive. Equally the one DLQ I’ve had the colony was really calm and chilled with neat drone brood pattern. If LWs, the cell must have failed and developed quickly given the timescales. I normally check Q cell emergence and this is a reminder why!

Still unsure, think laying workers, but have brought it home to decide what to do. No sign of a queen in the lower box. If a DLQ I could use the bees, if not I can’t.

What do you think? LWs or DLQ?

 

[Antipodes]

Checked a Nuc that I knew should be mated by now, with queen estimated to emerge 7 May and mated between 12-26 May.

Thought everything was fine, one egg per cell, on first frame, Q just getting laying, but then followed by 2 further frames of drone brood

Confused, as most cells had one egg but the odd one with two and off centre, like laying workers; but also queens just starting to lay can have more than one egg.

Brood pattern not as neat as a DLQ though. Seemed more haphazard. Had filled an extension Nuc box with honey / nectar. No eggs in this top box as had a queen excluder between. Maybe DLQ after all? Or would LWs only lay in the brood nest…? Seemed more agitated than I’d expect from a nuc.

This Nuc colony had a lot more flyers when I made it up than usual, as
had bled flyers to it that were surplus - could explain the defensiveness and the honey gathering, but sounded queenless but there again I shook bees off combs to take a good look

Laying workers I’ve seen before are really obvious with multiple eggs in cells and more defensive. Equally the one DLQ I’ve had the colony was really calm and chilled with neat drone brood pattern. If LWs, the cell must have failed and developed quickly given the timescales. I normally check Q cell emergence and this is a reminder why!

Still unsure, think laying workers, but have brought it home to decide what to do. No sign of a queen in the lower box. If a DLQ I could use the bees, if not I can’t.

What do you think? LWs or DLQ?

How sure are you that you should have seen a queen (how thorough was the search)?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Look like LW to me. I’ve had a colony with eggs everywhere including the supers. Mostly single. No way could a queen have laid that many eggs since the inspection before.

 

[elainemary]

How much searching for a queen did you do? Were you reasonably sure you should have seen her?

Went through 3 or 4 times. It was a nuc so not huge but sometimes they can hide on the box wall and you won’t find her on that occasion. So had to go on other evidence I saw.

 

[elainemary]

Look like LW to me. I’ve had a colony with eggs everywhere including the supers. Mostly single. No way could a queen have laid that many eggs since the inspection before.

Interesting to hear yours were single too

 

[Antipodes]

Went through 3 or 4 times. It was a nuc so not huge but sometimes they can hide on the box wall and you won’t find her on that occasion. So had to go on other evidence I saw.

Yeah, particularly a young one. The eggs on the sides of the cells look suspect don't they?

 

[elainemary]

Shook the colony out yesterday away from apiary to minimise risk of entering another colony making a queen. Hate doing it but bees were old and couldn’t be used. Definitely laying workers, not enough time has passed to allow for a queen to emerge, wait up to 3 weeks to get mated and lay up 3 frames, 2 sealed.

A lesson - always check cells have emerged, rather than the advice sometimes given, leave for 4 weeks then check if she’s laying. Can have LWs in a Nuc in this timescale

 

[Fritillary]

A lesson - always check cells have emerged, rather than the advice sometimes given, leave for 4 weeks then check if she’s laying. Can have LWs in a Nuc in this timescale

Yes. I now remember thinking this last spring - but seem to have just made the same mistake again.

 

[elainemary]

Look like LW to me. I’ve had a colony with eggs everywhere including the supers. Mostly single. No way could a queen have laid that many eggs since the inspection before.

Well Dani & @Antipodes , we were wrong...DLQ not LW. Have another look at my photos (the 6th one), a very kind and discreet lady member pointed her out to me on the frame. 33 of us looked at the photo & I was there in person and also didn't spot her but managed to capture her!

Double checked my records:
She emerged on 5 May (my records noted an emerged cell), so sexually mature around 10 May yet laid up 3 frames, 2 sealed by 28 May!

A learning for me just how quickly a queen can become a drone layer from emergence in a Nuc.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Oh for heavens sake, she’s obvious.
I just looked at the pattern
Oh well. At least a DLQ is easier to deal with

 

[Boston Bees]

Well Dani & @Antipodes , we were wrong...DLQ not LW. Have another look at my photos (the 6th one), a very kind and discreet lady member pointed her out to me on the frame. 33 of us looked at the photo & I was there in person and also didn't spot her but managed to capture her!

Double checked my records:
She emerged on 5 May (my records noted an emerged cell), so sexually mature around 10 May yet laid up 3 frames, 2 sealed by 28 May!

A learning for me just how quickly a queen can become a drone layer from emergence in a Nuc.

If there's a queen then they will cluster around her somewhere, then attempt to find a new home. Where did you shake them out?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Stan got her straight away

 

[elainemary]

If there's a queen then they will cluster around her somewhere, then attempt to find a new home. Where did you shake them out?

Away from apiary as thought it was LWs, didn't want any harm to come to any developing cells / virgins in nearby colonies; mixed signs, mainly short timescale that threw me. I'd say within 1/2 mile of nearest apiary, mid day at the weekend, when warmer. Def a queen as shown on photo 6 just didn't spot her at the time!

 

[Erichalfbee]

Why would you shake them out to perish. Better euthanising them surely?

 

[Boston Bees]

I don't think it is good practice, either from a humane point of view, or from a disease-spread point of view, to get in your car, drive away from your apiary, and dump a colony of bees in some random hedge. You have no idea where they will go, and who might have an apiary nearby.

Consider what you would think if you heard of any other kind of livestock/animal owner doing this?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Away from apiary as thought it was LW

why as per laying workers?
Laying workers are just shook out in the apiary
pretty bad form just to dump a load of bees out in the middle of nowhere

If there's a queen then they will cluster around her somewhere

Done it more than once, watched, and I have found that very few cluster around her whilst the majority beg their way into nearby hives

 

[Boston Bees]

Done it more than once, watched, and I have found that very few cluster around her whilst the majority beg their way into nearby hives

Also done it more than once, found the opposite, but might just be random I guess

 

[elainemary]

I don't think it is good practice, either from a humane point of view, or from a disease-spread point of view, to get in your car, drive away from your apiary, and dump a colony of bees in some random hedge. You have no idea where they will go, and who might have an apiary nearby.

Consider what you would think if you heard of any other kind of livestock/animal owner doing this?

Because I thought I had LWs and I KNEW they were disease free; because of the risk of LWs joining good queenless (rather than queen right) colonies in the process of making a queen; because pouring petrol or washing liquid into a poly Nuc with relatively old bees didn’t feel a good option either and the food present could be put to good use elsewhere.

Because we all make decisions, however hard, for what we believe at the time to be for the wider good.

 

[Boston Bees]

Because I thought I had LWs and I KNEW they were disease free; because of the risk of LWs joining good queenless (rather than queen right) colonies in the process of making a queen; because pouring petrol or washing liquid into a poly Nuc with relatively old bees didn’t feel a good option either and the food present could be put to good use elsewhere.

Because we all make decisions, however hard, for what we believe at the time to be for the wider good.

Right, but you won't be shaking out any colonies away from your own apiary in future? Fine.