Frame spacing and size of drones.

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Have you tried any other frame spacing than 38mm? If so, what are the reasons for using 38mm? How long from the start of spring buildup until your spring flow starts? As with JBM, if you have not tried any other spacing than standard 38mm Dadant or 35mm Langstroth, do you feel you have experience to critique what others have tried and found works? This is the kind of logic that says "I've never flown in a rocket therefore rockets have never gone to the moon".

My conditions are very specific. Spring buildup starts in early February with early pollen collection, fruit bloom is usually late February or early March with pear and then apple, and the main flow starts April 15th to 25th. There is usually a late spring flow that starts about May 20th and lasts until June 10th. We have a nectar dearth from mid June until mid August and then get fall flows from goldenrod and aster. That gives 10 weeks from start of buildup until the main spring flow hits. If I run 38mm frames, my bees don't reach peak strength until the main flow is 2 weeks along and by that time keeping them from swarming is difficult. If I run them on 32mm frame spacing, they reach peak strength the second week of April. I pull a split out of the strongest colonies and usually get a good crop of honey from the parent and some from the split. This usually gives an extra colony plus a couple of boxes of honey to sell.

Dadant was working in an area with 12 or more weeks of spring buildup before the main flow. He specifically credited his hive and his frames with reduced swarming. He was 100% correct. The large hive with 38mm frame spacing reduces swarming. But he did not understand "why" it worked. Do you?
Err... I'm not the one critiquing others, quite the opposite actually. It was, after all, ME that tagged you into this thread; knowing that you've done a lot of work with 32mm spacing I genuinely thought it would be interesting to have your perspective on the subject. How wrong I was.

Have I tried other spacings? Yes, all of our BS colonies are 35mm. But, if I could get 38mm BS hoffman frames easily and at competitive prices then I would. I've never seen retarded spring build up due to spacing but I do see (as an average /general observation) the dadant coming out of winter stronger than the bs but this could be for other reasons, I certainly don't say its a result of frame spacing although the wider store band in autumn no doubt has some influence.

Do I really care what others have in their hives? Yes I do; if they're capable of explaining benefits without reliance on derogatory comments about other methods. Could I care less about what others think of my methods? No, to be truthfull, I couldn't. What I will say is that I've changed lots of things over the years but the 38mm spacing isn't one of them.
 
Have I tried other spacings? Yes, all of our BS colonies are 35mm. But, if I could get 38mm BS hoffman frames easily and at competitive prices then I would.
Hi rolande, If you are serious about 38mm spacings put your brood boxes on 11 space castellations. Its a slightly different way of handling but the frames are cheaper. :giggle:
 
Hi rolande, If you are serious about 38mm spacings put your brood boxes on 11 space castellations. Its a slightly different way of handling but the frames are cheaper. :giggle:
The main thing here is that our BS boxes have frame rests of approx 18.5 inches because they're built on the modified dadant footprint so we'd either have to have castellations made to order or bodge them ourselves.
IMG_20220211_093913.jpg
 
Just to muddy the waters on this somewhat odd thread...

In British size boxes (Smith/National) there was the older wider spacing and the newer narrower one. We truly dislike the newer one and have all our brood frames (Smith and Langstroth) made at 35mm Hoffman side bars. Means we never have to clean them of wax etc as the extra space means you can always squeeze them in. A bit slack first time so you need to take care they are together and centered when completely new, but soon this is not any kind of issue. We also always use the full width of the box and never use dummy boards.

The narrower spacing requires perfect combs...MUST not be bowed or saggy because the bees then make adhesions between combs or if two sags are leaning together then you can get a bald patch. The slightly wider spacing is preferable for ease of management.

And yes...is IS true that the tighter the combs are together the greater the risk of rolling bees....of whatever type...only a BIG problem if it is the queen..but the smell of crushed bees does cause the colony to become more defensive during that examination. We found that far from them making shorter drone cells or adhesions across the space at drone brood, there was a definite tendency for the face of the next comb opposite the drone brood to actually be bald. No brood as the drone occupied so much of the 5mm narrower space that there was no room for brood. Drone seemed to get priority in the most active part of the season.

Not seen any issues with drone size or fertility in either way...similarly not seen the build up difference....it MAY exist but not to the extent stated in this thread.
Convenience and speed of management outweighs that factor for us anyway.

Never used Dadants, Modified dadants , or Dadant Blatts so they lie outwith my field of experience, but have an abundance of Langstroths. Worst frames for Langstroth are the British ones..skinny and flimsy, but have to say the bees dont mind. Beekeeper aesthetics are usually not reflected in what the bees like.

Perhaps worth pointing out to our overseas members that there is a British peculiarity they may not be aware of......wired foundation and frames grooved all round. This is NOT ideal for very narrow spacings as the foundation does lie less flat than with prewired and properly tensioned frames with a decent grade of unwired foundation embedded. These type of frames have solid side and bottom bars and are very robust, keeping flatter combs.
 
Err... I'm not the one critiquing others, quite the opposite actually. It was, after all, ME that tagged you into this thread; knowing that you've done a lot of work with 32mm spacing I genuinely thought it would be interesting to have your perspective on the subject. How wrong I was.
Then to you I truly apologize. I did not intend to insult you. As for JBM, he and I have an ongoing discourse based on mutual disdain.

ITLD brought some perspective to this discussion. He posted some of the real drawbacks of using narrow frames. Here is something I wrote nearly 25 years ago on the subject (If you note that it was published on Beesource in 2010, give yourself an attaboy, I still wrote it 25 years ago). You can find the entire discussion at: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?249192 As you may guess, it is a controversial topic.

There have been several articles published over the years advocating variants of the standard measurements of a frame. The January 1995 Bee Culture article titled Bee Space discussed using narrow gauge frames and referenced an article in the January 1977 issue. I first subscribed to Gleanings in Bee Culture in 1977. The article by Charles Koover plus financial restrictions inspired me to manufacture equipment, including narrow gauge frames. I went through three frame designs before I settled on the correct modifications. I have approximately 20 hive bodies using the narrow frames and have used them for 32 years. I also have used standard frames extensively for comparison. Here are my conclusions regarding narrow gauge frames. (Update that I converted to square Dadant in 2016 and all my equipment now has 32 mm end bars)

Narrow gauge frames tend to bow and warp more easily during construction. This is because all the measurements for frame joints have to be reduced. The frame must be carefully cut to precise dimensions and assembled to hang straight and free. I glue and nail all frames to achieve this goal. (Update that I built the Dadant frames much sturdier than Langstroths, but this was actually a case of going back to the way frames were built 100 years ago before "cheap" became fashionable. Wooden end bars 5mm thick are a nasty joke.)

A comb which is even slightly bowed is unacceptable. The frames must be wired to obtain perfectly straight combs. Combs built in unwired frames will result in one side being deep and the other shallow. The bees will only raise brood in the deep side. Pins and other methods do not support the foundation adequately to prevent this bowing. Plastic core foundations tend to bow too much over time though some of the newer heavy base might work.

Drone cells cannot be permitted because they will usually be at the frame's top or bottom edge. When a comb is removed from the hive body, bees will be crushed potentially killing the queen and causing excessive stinging because of the alarm pheromone released by the crushed bees. I renew the combs after about 5 years of use by cutting out the old comb and putting in new foundation. I use slatted rack bottom boards to reduce comb chewing and removal in the critical areas of the frame. The result is solid worker cell size combs which are easy to handle.

Narrow gauge frames with 11 frames per super for honey production are useless because uncapping is almost impossible. I use and prefer 9 frames in a honey super. The narrow gauge frames can be spaced to give this density. The advantage obtained with nine narrow gauge frames in a super is that uncapping is easier because there are almost no low spots in the comb surface. (Update that I put 12 frames in a square Dadant shallow super which would hold 14 narrow frames or 13 - 35mm frames. This gives nice fat combs to uncap.)

The structure of the winter cluster is different on narrow gauge frames. There is room for only two layers of bees between the combs as compared with three layers in standard frames. A winter cluster on narrow frames is therefore slightly larger for a given number of bees than in standard frames. This is especially important in the early spring when brood rearing begins because the cluster covers more comb surface. This allows brood rearing to expand earlier.

Eleven narrow frames full of honey weigh less than ten standard frames full because of the bee space around the 11th frame. The combination of expanded winter cluster and lower hive body weight will result in a colony that starves out in the early spring unless two or more hive bodies are used for wintering. This provides cluster crossover space and enough honey for successful wintering. (Update that this was one of the reasons to convert to Square Dadant. I can winter on 7 frames with @23kg of honey)

Spring buildup with narrow gauge frames is only slightly improved in my area because of weather conditions. The first pollen from willow is in mid February. The main flow starts about April 20th and peaks from the first to the twentieth of May. This means I have 9 weeks for spring buildup from the first incoming pollen to the start of the main nectar flow. With such a long buildup period, swarming is a significant problem whether using narrow or standard frames. (Update that weather patterns have changed significantly in the last 20 years, first pollen is now in January)

The primary advantage under these conditions is that two deep hive bodies can contain the brood of the most prolific queen. I have had up to 18 frames of brood, larvae, and eggs from an exceptional queen. The two outside frames in the hive body were full of pollen and honey and all 9 inner frames were at least 70 percent full of brood. With standard frames, this amount of brood would partially occupy 3 hive bodies, but with narrow gauge frames, only two hive bodies are required. (Update that the most I've seen in Dadant frames is 9 combs of brood and all had a ring of honey at the top.)

One significant advantage is that when made to the correct dimensions, bridge and brace comb is almost nonexistent. Please note that some bee strains are excessive at building bridge and brace comb. The narrow gauge frames will reduce, but not eliminate this tendency in these strains. (Update that I still see this effect with narrow Dadant frames, but propolis is still abundantly deposited similar to other frame sizes and dimensions)

Would I recommend a wholesale change to narrow gauge frames? No, but only because bees on them are less forgiving of human errors. They have slight advantages over standard frames in daily operation. (ITLD has it right, if I were a commercial beekeeper, I would probably use 38mm frames because they are more amenable to fast inspection and reduce swarming)

The standard hive body with standard frames has been proven in over 100 years of beekeeping. The only impetus that would cause us to change the size hive and frame we use today would be a dramatic change in the way we keep bees. Examples of such dramatic changes could be found in the operations of migratory beekeepers using pallet systems. They could use a square hive more effectively than the rectangular ones we use today. Also, if queens are bred to be more prolific with resultant higher honey production, the standard hive body and frame will show serious limitations. (Update, I could hope we will eventually have queens that can maintain colonies with 90,000 or more bees. I can only get populations that big with 2 queens at present.)
 
@Fusion_power , thankyou, that's the sort of post I was hoping to see. I do vaguely remember the beesource thread which you linked and your launch into the square dadants. It was your writing that originally spurred me to trial 32mm in some homemade mating nucs which we were playing with (I mentioned those boxes a few times on the Scottish bee forum at the time). So, you see, I'm always happy to keep an open mind because sometimes I stumble on things which I can incorporate to my advantage.
 
Everything we do with bees is ultimately for the benefit of the beekeeper. Bees are perfectly happy in just about any suitable cavity and will build combs that are perfect for them. When humans get involved, the bees wind up in odd size cavities, some larger and some smaller than the bees prefer. They have straight combs in moveable frames with spacing they might not like at all but put up with because it is what they have.

The thing to remember about 32 mm spacing is that it is a "management" choice. I have had 45 years of using narrow frames and know how to use them to my benefit and how to mitigate the negative effects. I am deliberately pushing my bees to build up as early as possible because that permits me to make spring splits for increase.

Reading through some of the comments above, it might help to mention the exact effect of narrow frames and "when" it is important. I inspected a colony yesterday (22C, sunny) and found 5 frames of brood including a generous patch of drone larvae. The cluster covers 7 Dadant frames to some extent. That same cluster on 38mm frames could not possibly cover more than 5 combs. The combination of 5 frames with brood plus a patch of drone larvae clearly indicates this colony will swarm about the 1st of April. I left a shallow super of dark combs with honey on the colony last fall because they did not have enough in the deep frames for winter. That super was nearly empty with most of the honey moved down around the brood. Side note, bees will move honey down only when actively rearing brood. I put on 1/2 gallon of syrup and moved the shallow super up above the feeder with the intent of pulling the shallow off as soon as the rest of the honey has been removed. The benefit of the narrow frames is that this colony has 5 frames of brood on February 11th. A colony on 38mm frames would have 3 or 4 frames of brood under comparable conditions. By the time both colonies (one on 32mm, one on 38mm frames) reach 6 or 7 frames of brood, the effect of narrow frames is negligible. This is because the cluster will get large enough to cover enough comb to accommodate the maximum egg laying ability of the queen. Three months or so into spring buildup you will not be able to tell the difference between a colony on 32mm frames and a colony on 38mm frames because the queen has maxed out egg laying in both colonies. Keep in mind these are Dadant combs.

The effect is therefore only during the first two months of spring buildup. When temperatures are still low enough to have sharply defined clusters and those clusters cover a bit more comb space and spring pollen is coming in and stores are available, the bees respond by producing a bit more brood a bit earlier. The rest of the year, narrow frames work about the same as any other frame spacing. But I get spring splits in March where other beekeepers have to wait for April!
 

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