Foundationless - practical tips for starting

[Hivemaker.]

Ok have I missed something here?

About sixty posts, it started at post 21, so just need to read from there.

 

[pargyle]

Ok have I missed something here? But what has dowsing rods, lay lines, acupuncture or osteopath got to do with setting up a hive to go foundationless?

My fault -- I opened Pandora's box ! Having said that it nearly always develops into an entertaining and occasionally humourous or sometimes humourless discussion about which neither side will ever agree.

Although this year has been a little less acrimonious than in the past.

But... Do try to keep up !

 

[Wingy]

My fault -- I opened Pandora's box ! Having said that it nearly always develops into an entertaining and occasionally humourous or sometimes humourless discussion about which neither side will ever agree.

Although this year has been a little less acrimonious than in the past.

But... Do try to keep up !

Ha ha, I read through twice and went back to the beginning thinking somehow I had jumped from one thread to another. I did presume it had gone off topic as there was no way I was going to contemplate setting up my hives using leylines or dowsing rods to ensure they draw straight comb. Then when it jumped to acupuncture and osteopath well that was just silly lol.
I did contemplate adding hypnosis to the mix could just see a load of hypnotised bees with pins stuck in them drawing laser straight comb along the direction of leylines ��������

 

[Beefriendly]

I did contemplate adding hypnosis to the mix could just see a load of hypnotised bees with pins stuck in them drawing laser straight comb along the direction of leylines ��������

Be very careful what you wish for....there appear to be many gullible beekeepers out there.[emoji56]

 

[pargyle]

I did presume it had gone off topic as there was no way I was going to contemplate setting up my hives using leylines or dowsing rods to ensure they draw straight comb.

Don't knock it until you've tried it ... what else in beekeeping costs you nothing more than a couple of bent bits of wire and a few minutes thinking about energy lines ... with your bent bits of wire in hand.

What's the worst that can happen ... the rods will either tell you something or they won't ?

 

[Beefriendly]

the rods will either tell you something or they won't ?

You better hope they don't say a word....talking rods, whatever next!!

 

[For want of a better word]

Ha ha, I read through twice and went back to the beginning thinking somehow I had jumped from one thread to another. I did presume it had gone off topic as there was no way I was going to contemplate setting up my hives using leylines or dowsing rods to ensure they draw straight comb. Then when it jumped to acupuncture and osteopath well that was just silly lol.
I did contemplate adding hypnosis to the mix could just see a load of hypnotised bees with pins stuck in them drawing laser straight comb along the direction of leylines ��������

LEYLINES are imaginary lines drawn to join structures that appear to be on the imaginary lines

DOWSING is something completely different... but it is not imaginary!

Nos da

 

[coffindodger]

The problem with Osteopathy until some ten years ago was anyone could use the word.
Now anyone practising has to have attended and passed the exams of the University College of Osteopathy. https://www.uco.ac.uk/

In my mind, I see no connection in the validation between aroma therapy and osteopathy. PH

Aromatherapy is an accepted method of treatment in midwifery. Considering the surface area in the lungs and direct connection to the bloodstream it is not surprising that the method works - but, again the common myth that it is simply smelling flowers gives the outsider the impression that it is mumbo jumbo or at best a psychological effect. It isn't; it is a delivery system which uses the known effects of some chemicals obtained from some botanicals. Many genuine professionals suffer from the point you make; there is nothing to stop anybody calling themselves an aromatherapist, chiropractor, estate agent or experienced beekeeper and many charlatans take advantage of this to the detriment of honest and qualified persons.

 

[domino]

DOWSING is something completely different... but it is not imaginary!

I hear it's pretty mainstream in Atlantis.

 

[Ely]

I hear it's pretty mainstream in Atlantis.

 

[Ely]

Dowsing for leylines. That’s like mixing two myths and coming up with another. Mind you, the Easter bunny delivered my family’s presents this year so don’t knock it until you’ve (convinced yourself it works) tried it.

 

[Stedic]

At the risk of returning back to the original topic...

I have just 2 questions left (for now!!).

1. In the absence of any drawn super frames would you advocate alternating frames with foundation and those without, or would you let them draw a full box on foundation first and then swap in a few foundationless frames over time?

2. Is it too early to start wiring frames and adding the starter strips of foundation? Will the foundation 'go off'? If not I'll try wiring a few and adding the strip later on.

Thanks - very helpful thread so far.

 

[domino]

I'll have a go, although I'm sure more experienced person will be along shortly.

1. In the absence of any drawn super frames would you advocate alternating frames with foundation and those without, or would you let them draw a full box on foundation first and then swap in a few foundationless frames over time?

You can try mixing them up, I'd just pay close attention to the frame sizes as they may build them pretty thick given space. That it should matter.

2. Is it too early to start wiring frames and adding the starter strips of foundation? Will the foundation 'go off'? If not I'll try wiring a few and adding the strip later on.

Thanks - very helpful thread so far.

No, if it goes off colour you can gently heat it with a heat gun/hair dryer to get that nice colour back again.

 

[pargyle]

At the risk of returning back to the original topic...

I have just 2 questions left (for now!!).

1. In the absence of any drawn super frames would you advocate alternating frames with foundation and those without, or would you let them draw a full box on foundation first and then swap in a few foundationless frames over time?

They are better with something to guide them when you first start ... a couple of frames with foundation with foundationless either side will be good. You will probably find that they start on the frames without foundation first - that tells you something.

Alternatively - when the spring flow starts put a super frame or two into your brood box - they will draw them out in a day or two - you can then put those into a super and they are on their way.


2. Is it too early to start wiring frames and adding the starter strips of foundation? Will the foundation 'go off'? If not I'll try wiring a few and adding the strip later on.

No ... keep them out of the light once you have done them - as has been said, if they get a 'bloom' on the strips you can freshen them with a blast from a hair drier or heat gun. Don't worry about the cell impressions - they will build what they want. I don't use foundation strips any more - I just have triangular strips of timber under the top bar that I 'paint' with my own beeswax. Works well.

Thanks - very helpful thread so far.

 

[Madge]

...

1. In the absence of any drawn super frames would you advocate alternating frames with foundation and those without, or would you let them draw a full box on foundation first and then swap in a few foundationless frames over time? ...

The problem with alternating frames with, and without, foundation - particularly in supers - is that the bees might ignore the strip foundation and concentrate on drawing out the frames with foundation and continue to extend the cells into the space of the strip foundation.

I don’t know what to suggest other than experiment and see.

 

[drex]

I just know that in my top bar hive, in which, like Pargyle , on the underside of the top bars I have A strip of wood which I paint with wax, that they will draw out a nice straight comb if it is placed between two already nicely drawn straight combs. If the empty gap is bigger they can get creative in wax drawing.

 

[pargyle]

The problem with alternating frames with, and without, foundation - particularly in supers - is that the bees might ignore the strip foundation and concentrate on drawing out the frames with foundation and continue to extend the cells into the space of the strip foundation.

I don’t know what to suggest other than experiment and see.

In my experience just the opposite happens - they seem to prefer to build the foundationless frames in preference to drawing out those with foundation in them. On the rare occasions when I've used some foundation to keep them straight they've gone for the foundationless frames.

The key with being foundationless is to keep an eye on what they are doing and if they do get a bit wayward you just take a knife to any lumps and bumps or bend it to straighten it out and they get the message and keep it fairly straight. Once they have built a couple of combs out they are fine.

I thought about making up some super frame sized dummy boards to use as guides for them (before I had drawn super frames available in any quantity) but never really got round to it - might work.

 

[Eyeman]

In my experience just the opposite happens - they seem to prefer to build the foundationless frames in preference to drawing out those with foundation in them. On the rare occasions when I've used some foundation to keep them straight they've gone for the foundationless frames.

The key with being foundationless is to keep an eye on what they are doing and if they do get a bit wayward you just take a knife to any lumps and bumps or bend it to straighten it out and they get the message and keep it fairly straight. Once they have built a couple of combs out they are fine.

I thought about making up some super frame sized dummy boards to use as guides for them (before I had drawn super frames available in any quantity) but never really got round to it - might work.

My 3 frame mating nucs get a frame of brood/bees, one of foundation and one starter strip.
As Pargyle has found they always work on the srarter strip first.

 

[Gwr]

I use the bamboo cooking skewer sticks vertically on all my frames having followed the website of the http://theapiarist.org/ as well. It’s great. They are available in different lengths so I even use the longer ones on my 14x12 frames. They are cheap as chips as well.

For those that want to try - it costs nothing apart from suffering a bit of ridicule from those unbelievers around you and a bending of any principles of logic you may have.

Whilst not bee hive location related it is amazing how many major UK utility companies still use dowsing rods to find thier supplies underground on unknown ground. Recently in Manchester the water board lady walked out where the mains pipe for water supply went across an unmapped 1/2 acre of a friends new building plot using her dowser rods. The pipe seemed to wiggle it’s way across the field and round a bit. The only problem was when they actually dug the marks line up it turns out she actually had found the gas main by the dowser method but that’s still very amazingly especially as she was always within 3 inches away from it all the way across a old farm field.

If I’d not seen it with my own eyes I’d have not believed it.

 

[pargyle]

Whilst not bee hive location related it is amazing how many major UK utility companies still use dowsing rods to find thier supplies underground on unknown ground. Recently in Manchester the water board lady walked out where the mains pipe for water supply went across an unmapped 1/2 acre of a friends new building plot using her dowser rods. The pipe seemed to wiggle it’s way across the field and round a bit. The only problem was when they actually dug the marks line up it turns out she actually had found the gas main by the dowser method but that’s still very amazingly especially as she was always within 3 inches away from it all the way across a old farm field.

If I’d not seen it with my own eyes I’d have not believed it.

Oh my - just when the bruhaha has died down you go and wind up the anti-dowsing, I would not believe it even if I saw it, if it worked they would have cheated brigade - hope you've got a tin hat !!