Foundationless - practical tips for starting

[Beefriendly]

Its called the ideomotor effect which refers to the influence of suggestion or expectation on involuntary and unconscious motor behavior.

 

[For want of a better word]

Its called the ideomotor effect which refers to the influence of suggestion or expectation on involuntary and unconscious motor behavior.

Reductionist..... try opening your mind!

Bees do align their natural wax productions with what some care to call Leylines.. for the want of a better word.... I have seen this in my own TB hives and in others too.
For some reason I align my colonies with "Leylines" naturally and was totally amazed to say the least when I found that not only I could detect these anomalies in the Earth field, but another "Dowser" could find intersections of a number of lines that pinpointed where I regularly had swarms of bees settle.

Nos Da

 

[user 6228]

Reductionist..... try opening your mind!

Bees do align their natural wax productions with what some care to call Leylines.. for the want of a better word.... I have seen this in my own TB hives and in others too.
For some reason I align my colonies with "Leylines" naturally and was totally amazed to say the least when I found that not only I could detect these anomalies in the Earth field, but another "Dowser" could find intersections of a number of lines that pinpointed where I regularly had swarms of bees settle.

Nos Da

just cos the bees do something that has not been researched properly , it doesnt excuse magick and going all terry prachett.
Bee navigate by lanmarks as well as the sun in the landscape so its just lines of easy navigation not "energy lines"

or are you being ironic?

 

[For want of a better word]

just cos the bees do something that has not been researched properly , it doesnt excuse magick and going all terry prachett.
Bee navigate by lanmarks as well as the sun in the landscape so its just lines of easy navigation not "energy lines"

or are you being ironic?

So why can I pick up on them ( Leylines) with a couple of bent coat hangers?

Ironic... No... possibly Hollistic?

I do not have an explanation... I always thought it was a load of hogswash too


More wierd for bees I have to "think" bees... but for water ( and I can find that too) I have to think "water"

Nos da

 

[Beefriendly]

just cos the bees do something that has not been researched properly , it doesnt excuse magick and going all terry prachett.

It has been researched. Bees orientate to magnetic fields.
http://web.gps.caltech.edu/~jkirschvink/pdfs/Bees.pdf
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00612015#page-1
There's lots more if you look around

But worry not, despite any evidence Hoppy just loves trolling me.
And all these expert dowsers never even thought to take up Randi's challenge making them $1000000 richer, seems people with paranormal abilities don't require money

 

[Beefriendly]

More wierd for bees I have to "think" bees..

Do you not find the hives give the "bees" hiding places away?
You must look frenetic, like a whirling dervish with your spinning calibrated coat-hangers in a busy apiary with bees flying everywhere.

 

[DanBee]

When I hear that bees draw comb parallel to ley lines, I think of these photos of an overwintered nuc that outgrew its space one May. Crown board was on accidentally upside down (top bee space, hence double bee space above frames) which was filled with seemingly random blobs of comb, above the feed hole they had built a lovely star pattern in the space between crown board and roof. Oh, and note that in the HFF they'd built parallel combs neatly perpendicular to the frame orientation.

So who wants to plot the ley lines that caused those patterns?

 

[pargyle]

. Oh, and note that in the HFF they'd built parallel combs neatly perpendicular to the frame orientation.

So who wants to plot the ley lines that caused those patterns?

Hmm ... A bit surprising that they seem to have built perfectly parallell free comb in the feeder - completely at right angles to the frames in the rest of the hive ... so, perhaps, that's the orientation that the bees would have prefered to orient their comb building ? Not the alignment that you had oriented the frames ?

Perhaps you would like a pair of dowsing rods Dan (I'll happily send some down to you - you might be surprised !).

I've never said that bees will not follow foundation when it is presented to them - we are talking about foundationless hives here when, as a commercial beekeeper, I would imagine you only have frames with foundation in them ?

The free comb on the crown board does not surprise me - it's emergency comb when they needed some space or just felt like building comb - a red herring as far as this thread is concerned I'm afraid. However the hive could have been sited on multiple intersections - the principle alignment looks to be roughly in the same direction as the free comb in the feeder ?

 

[Madge]

Hmm ... A bit surprising that they seem to have built perfectly parallell free comb in the feeder - completely at right angles to the frames in the rest of the hive ... so, perhaps, that's the orientation that the bees would have prefered to orient their comb building ? Not the alignment that you had oriented the frames ? ...

It’s just logistics. Building short combs across the feeder is stronger, I think, than one long comb (and easier to keep brood warm).

 

[For want of a better word]

It has been researched. Bees orientate to magnetic fields.
http://web.gps.caltech.edu/~jkirschvink/pdfs/Bees.pdf
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00612015#page-1
There's lots more if you look around

But worry not, despite any evidence Hoppy just loves trolling me.
And all these expert dowsers never even thought to take up Randi's challenge making them $1000000 richer, seems people with paranormal abilities don't require money

I only discovered the "Troll experience" when I joined this forum... likes of Thymallus/ Truble/ Beef...... banned and reincarnated... or is it morphed to another form?
Unfortunately this seems to be the way of life with social media these days... so sad!

How about " I disagree with you because of XY&Z" instead of looking through the archives for "fake news?"... and posting links that lead to places anyone with an iota of common sense would want to go????

Pargile is right... don't feed the Troll!!

Yeghes da

 

[Ely]

Because, like many of us .. he's a live and let live person who, like me, does not feel the need to PROVE anything to those closed minded souls who feel everything has to have an explanation.

Can you imagine the claims of heresy when the first person suggested the world was not FLAT ? Many scientific observations took a time to become scientific FACTS - in the shorter term - if it works who GAF ? Except YOU ?

I said in my post #23 that I remain convinced but I didn't want to open the can of worms that usually arises whenever this unproven phenomenon is mentioned on here - but you just can't resist can you ?

Back under your bridge please - leave those with differing views and ideas alone ... we are happy in our beliefs.

I’m sorry but expecting scientific explanation and discovery of hypothesis is the opposite to close minded. Mankind wouldn’t have progressed very far without the sceptical mind of those wishing to seek truth.

 

[colinc]

How can you claim the parallel comb as the true “ley line” orientation because it fits the theory? You then just dismiss all the random comb as “just emergency comb”?
This is where holistic treatment claims always fall down, rather than look for measurable proof, you take it on faith, and dismiss dissent and cases that don’t follow the rules as al being outliers when scientific proof generally points to the inverse.
The human brain has so much information to process that it would fail to function if it didn’t cheat. It looks for rules and shortcuts to use up less of its processing power so a lot of reactions become automatic. Because it is desperate to find shortcuts it will “create” rules and patterns even if they are not there.
I think this is where you will find your proofs.


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[Beefriendly]

and posting links that lead to places anyone with an iota of common sense would want to go????

I quite agree with you, quoting links to scientific papers detailing the effects of magnetic fields on the positioning of bees comb is where anyone with any interest in why bees comb is not placed randomly should go and read. Here's a link to a review in Magnetic Orientation in Animals by Roswitha Wiltschko. Whilst there is some speculative stuff about using magnetic fields for flying there is some rather nice diagrams of comb orientation and how it turns round when you alter magnetic North.

I ([emoji56])do all this helpful stuff and you call me names ....[emoji48]

 

[colinc]

But Ley Lines are not magnetic lines or paths they are set down relating to man made and geographical “paths and routes” through the landscape. This is laid down as perceived by humans so you can get an understanding of why Dowsers get a hit with their sticks.
Are they not subconsciously sensing the same thing that dictates the existence of a Ley Line?


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[For want of a better word]

But Ley Lines are not magnetic lines or paths they are set down relating to man made and geographical “paths and routes” through the landscape. This is laid down as perceived by humans so you can get an understanding of why Dowsers get a hit with their sticks.
Are they not subconsciously sensing the same thing that dictates the existence of a Ley Line?


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Good point Colin... Dowsing is an "OLD CRAFT" that predates Ley Lines which was something made up by some bloke so he could write a book about it... found in the FICTION dept in most libraries!

This seem to be the problem... these lines of force or whatever they are have been dubbed Leylines.. which were lines of orientations that were man made or natural that appeared to line up... a typical nonsense pounce upon by those who are not gifted with so called supernatural powers.... nothing to do with Dowsing at all.

The lines that I detect with a couple of bits of bent wire when I think Bees do not seem to be electromagnetic, and do not follow overhead cables, in fact can run at angles to them with no apparent influence.
However, when Western Power could not find a live power cable running across my paddock, I managed to locate it exactly by dowsing, and the rods totally ignored lines that I knew intersected in an old oak where bees regularly swarm.

I have no explanation.... except perhaps there are anomalies in the Earths fields that bees navigate with, and orientate to.... that others can sense as well???

Yeghes da

 

[pargyle]

I have no explanation.... except perhaps there are anomalies in the Earths fields that bees navigate with, and orientate to.... that others can sense as well???

Yeghes da

That's exactly where I am ... I have no preconceived notions of where these lines are - I've seen sceptics pick up my rods and find the same lines that I've found - to the millimetre - when they could not possibly have known where they were. I can't explain it ... indeed, I have no wish to SCIENTIFICALLY explain it. It doesn't work for some people and others, who you would think are so sceptical that it hurts them, find the rods work for them.

When Watkins started labelling lines, he perceived, lining up ancient structures, as Leylines in 1921 and was then followed by the clowns who started joining up random landmarks just to make things fit, it did dowsers no favours I'm afraid.

As you say, dowsing or divination is as old as history - principally for water and other underground materials - indeed a number of British water companies still (very quietly !) employ dowsers to assist them locate water sources and pipes that have been 'lost'. There are woodprints of dowsing from the 16th Century and no doubt it was practised prior to that. In fact - it has always been challenged and at times considered herertical and banned by the state, so it comes as no surprise that it still attracts controversy.

There is, it appears, a connection between someones ability to dowse for water etc. and be able to locate what Roger P now calls Energy Lines. Whether you can accept dowsing without the need for an explanation is up to you .. if you are sitting on the fence wondering - bend a couple of wire coat hangers or welding rods and have a go ...as I said much earlier in this thread - it costs nothing apart from the embarrassment of being exposed to a bit of ridicule and a bit of time when you are not tending your bees.

I'm not an evangelist for dowsing any more than I am for treatment free bees and foundationless frames ... or even Poly hives ! If it works for me than I'm happy - nobody has to follow suit unless they want to.

 

[Beefriendly]

Never say I can't be helpful.

And if you would reallly like to indulge there are hand made dancing titanium dowsing pendulums, for when calibrated coathangers are simply not enough!.

 

[colinc]

Did you steal that from my Christmas tree?

Damn autocorrect...!
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[pargyle]

Never say I can't be helpful.
And if you would reallly like to indulge there are hand made dancing titanium dowsing pendulums, for when calibrated coathangers are simply not enough!.
QUOTE]

You can laugh all you want ... just tell us one thing ... with all these people who claim to be able to dowse or divine ... are you just not a little bit curious as to whether you may be one of them ... you'll never know until you try !

 

[colinc]

I saw a TV program where they went to a dowsing gathering and asked dowsers to find the bottle of water under buckets. The odds were high approaching 50:50 and the dowsers (with some very fancy rods as well as some plain coathangers), despite their confidence, generally failed miserably. Enough proof for me.


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