Foundationless - practical tips for starting

[pargyle]

When you first start going foundationless they do need a guide -a drawn or partially drawn frame adjacent to the foundationless ones helps to keep them on the right track. If you give them two or three empty frames together then they can sometimes get a bit creative and you may find that they will ignore the direction of the frames and draw their comb in line with any ley lines across the frames. (Tin hat on .... ) I've made this mistake and whilst it is a marvel to behold what they do it's waste of wax and makes life difficult for the beekeeper.

You sometimes find a few lumps and bumps when you are foundation free but it's easy enough to cut the comb back flat and they will get the message.

Lastly, converting from standard national to 14 x 12 is easy ... just put the national frames in a 14 x 12 box and they will add free comb on to the bottom of the frames ... you can put a 14 x 12 foundation free frame in between the nationals and they will draw it out straight. Just keep moving the nationals with the free comb on the bottom to the outside of the box and gradually get rid of them. (or as they are perfectly usable by the bees and the small amount of free comb is pretty robust continue to use them - the bees don't mind old comb - it's just some beekeepers who seem to think you should change brood frames regularly - total waste of wax and bee-time !).

You can see here what they do:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/99514363@N06/albums/72157643951385343

Frame No. 13/13a is a standard national that was in my 14 x 12 Long deep hive. The other frames are 14 x 12's but I made the mistake of leaving space below them when I built the hive - and the little darlings just carried on using all the available depth !! It's what bees do ..

 

[fatshark]

... and draw their comb in line with any ley lines across the frames. (Tin hat on .... ) ...

And for the sceptics ;-)

 

[pargyle]

And for the sceptics ;-)

Roger is a very conventional beekeeper - he's not a tofu eating sandal wearing off the wall tree hugging let them get on with it beekeeper .. I nearly fell off my chair when I heard him tell a convention that he dowses for energy lines in order to site his hives ... I've been doing it almost since I started beekeeping - after reading John Hardings (very badly written !) book. I remain convinced but I don't want to open the can of worms that usually arises whenever this unproven phenomenon is mentioned on here. Lets just leave it as 'each to their own'.

For those that want to try - it costs nothing apart from suffering a bit of ridicule from those unbelievers around you and a bending of any principles of logic you may have.

 

[domino]

With the nuc, would sticking 6 foundationless frames in to their new brood box result in messy comb? Thinking 3 frames either side, with a starter strip of foundation. I don't really want to split their brood nest if I can help it, although if the outer frames are empty I will alternate.

I think it's better to have a drawn frame with bees on to start a box. I tend to start all my boxes with three frames of bees and put the foundationless stuff either side.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

In Lesotho Seen a swarm of scutellata settle in a Langstroth hive full of frames - no foundation, no starter strips just the groove to take the foundation on Hoffman frames with european spacing not the narrower African and draw perfectly spaced even comb in the whole box, but in a neighbouring hive, starting near the entrance perfectly then, whilst keeping the spacing correctly curve to the East and crossing two frames

 

[Beefriendly]

(Tin hat on .... ) .

No, just amazed how financially naive ALL dowsers are, there was a $1,000,000 prixe available for anyone who could prove they had ANY form of paranormal ability including dowsing. Roger refused to enter it when I challenged him....I wonder why
No one ever succeeded, so they now donate their money to proven research areas.
http://web.randi.org/the-million-dollar-challenge.html
http://web.randi.org/home/jref-status

 

[Hivemaker.]

paranormal ability

Had a couple of dogs that had paranormal ability, no idea how them dogs got that ability, cannot be explained by science, yet.

 

[domino]

No, just amazed how financially naive ALL dowsers are, there was a $1,000,000 prixe available for anyone who could prove they had ANY form of paranormal ability including dowsing. Roger refused to enter it when I challenged him....I wonder why
No one ever succeeded, so they now donate their money to proven research areas.
http://web.randi.org/the-million-dollar-challenge.html
http://web.randi.org/home/jref-status

Probably making a mint finding all those Roman hordes.

 

[Beefriendly]

Had a couple of dogs that had paranormal ability

I had one of them once. It could see ghosts and spirits that no-one else could see.

 

[colinc]

No, just amazed how financially naive ALL dowsers are, there was a $1,000,000 prixe available for anyone who could prove they had ANY form of paranormal ability including dowsing. Roger refused to enter it when I challenged him....I wonder why
No one ever succeeded, so they now donate their money to proven research areas.
http://web.randi.org/the-million-dollar-challenge.html
http://web.randi.org/home/jref-status

The homeopathists refused to rise to that challenge too. I believe that homeopathy was “invented” by a German entrepreneur but around the same time as Mormonism, Kellogg’s cornflakes and Coca Cola as medicines and religions. Not sure which is which there was at that time a lot of money to be made of enlightened/gullible (delete as applicable) people.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[pargyle]

No, just amazed how financially naive ALL dowsers are, there was a $1,000,000 prixe available for anyone who could prove they had ANY form of paranormal ability including dowsing. Roger refused to enter it when I challenged him....I wonder why

Because, like many of us .. he's a live and let live person who, like me, does not feel the need to PROVE anything to those closed minded souls who feel everything has to have an explanation.

Can you imagine the claims of heresy when the first person suggested the world was not FLAT ? Many scientific observations took a time to become scientific FACTS - in the shorter term - if it works who GAF ? Except YOU ?

I said in my post #23 that I remain convinced but I didn't want to open the can of worms that usually arises whenever this unproven phenomenon is mentioned on here - but you just can't resist can you ?

Back under your bridge please - leave those with differing views and ideas alone ... we are happy in our beliefs.

 

[Beefriendly]

All you dowsers must be super rich to turn down a million dollars.

 

[pargyle]

All you dowsers must be super rich to turn down a million dollars.

Like I said ... give it a rest .... plenty of bridges elsewhere for you.

 

[Stedic]

Funnily enough I'd heard Roger talk about this on the -------- podcast a few weeks ago. I'm a very sceptical person so it wouldn't normally appeal - but I might just give it a go to see what happens. My out apiary is on a farm run by hippies, so I expect they'd quite like to see it too!

As for the arguments/evidence etc.....well, I don't really mind. I spend my time at work dealing with "evidence based medicine" so a little light relief won't hurt!

 

[domino]

Can you imagine the claims of heresy when the first person suggested the world was not FLAT ?

Pythagoras seems to have come through it okay. Much to the chagrin of 11-year-old maths students.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Can you imagine the claims of heresy when the first person suggested the world was not FLAT ?

What do you mean!!
Don't let the BBKA hear you saying things like that else we will never be crowned Master Beekeepers!!!

 

[pargyle]

What do you mean!!
Don't let the BBKA hear you saying things like that else we will never be crowned Master Beekeepers!!!

Ahhh ... shucks ... you've totally deflated my future ambitions - what hope have I now ??

 

[Newbeeneil]

Hello all, newbie here and I started reading posts yesterday.
This post is so typical of forums and makes me smile as I read imagining people's minds going off topic!
Anyway ..... I started using foundationless frames this year for 2 reasons
1....... I'm a typical beekeeper.... cheapskate
2....... I, like a previous poster, find it fun to watch bees produce fantastic comb from a mere sliver of a start strip. I use horizontal wires, 2 on brood frames, 1 on supers.
The fact that bees waste precious honey making energy doesn't bother me as I have not need or desire for tons of honey - enough for the bees a some for my toast is plenty. I would rather spend time breeding nice calm easily handled bees rather than honey machines.
On the "off topic" topic
I have known Roger for a while now and he's one of the most genuine guys I know and I cringe sometimes when he discusses ley lines or energy lines as I believe they are now called!
BUT I have had success with a pair of bent coat hangers myself.... I don't believe, but am willing to try anything if it saves me money .( as I said....cheapskate)
I was shown by a guy on a motorway site many years ago when was in charge of "discovering" lost cable conduits which had been covered up during construction of the M25.
That pair of bent welding rods saved me a fortune in expensive plant time in excavation......I don't know how... but why knock it!
Have fun guys.

 

[user 6228]

Just because someone has integrity and really believes in something doesn't make it true.

My pet theory for dowsing is:

that its just subconscious assessment of the surroundings that surfaces in the muscle movement that cause the hands to twitch.
In our evolution we needed to find resources under the ground from the more subtle cues. Our modern reasoning thought gets in the way and this is just away to bypass it and hook into the older stuff. Remove the ability to assess the cues and the whole thing vanishes. No magic except old hominid responses to the landscape.

Asking a believer about dowsing is like asking most people about what they do while riding a bike. That is to say: nothing to do with what is really happening.
For example: Leaning to start the turn, pushing on the inside footpeg etc..

 

[coffindodger]

Just because someone has integrity and really believes in something doesn't make it true.

My pet theory for dowsing is:

that its just subconscious assessment of the surroundings that surfaces in the muscle movement that cause the hands to twitch.
In our evolution we needed to find resources under the ground from the more subtle cues. Our modern reasoning thought gets in the way and this is just away to bypass it and hook into the older stuff. Remove the ability to assess the cues and the whole thing vanishes. No magic except old hominid responses to the landscape.

That doesn't explain how the bent wires work over roads, inside buildings or unatural places. Nor does it allow for thick gloves or wooden holders. I find them useful to follow pipes, cables, etc. The torque is very strong and stepping backwards gives an immediate response. Quite often there is an unexpected turn and co-workers say, "No, can't do that, must be wrong", but it isn't. For example a pipe which looped over itself and went back in the 'wrong' direction. I've no idea about energy lines and can't tell the difference between cables and pipes (need a starting point) and have no idea what is happening, but it certainly can't be a reaction to landscape in a completely man made environment where logical arrangements prove completely awry.