Foundationless beekeeping

[domino]

I'm sure Tom will be along to comment but for what it's worth my opinion:

I decided to go foundationless for three reasons:

1. Cost ... not insignificant if you buy best organic foundation from a good supplier.

2. Concerns that, even with good quality foundation, there is the potential for chemicals in the wax (residual varroacides or contaminants - I have even heard that some foundation is part paraffin wax).

3. If the bees build their own comb, solely from materials they have foraged or that I have provided in the way of syrup, then I know that they have only materials in the hive that I am happy with. They will build cells within the comb that they want to build, without influence from me as to the size, shape or nature. As far as I am concerned, this follows for both brood and honey storage areas. The bees will do what they want to do - my only addition/influence is frames and wires which. if they did not wish to use, they could easily ignore - but they haven't, they appear to readily accept the frames as a convenient structure within which they build, otherwise, completely natural comb.

There is apocryphal evidence that bees in foundationless hives are more relaxed ... certainly my bees are very well behaved .. and healthier and if this proves to be the case then I am happy, but I'm far from suggesting that it is an absolute. As it costs nothing (apart from some possible loss of honey production) then I considered it a no-brainer for my hobby beekeeping. There appear to me, to be few disadvantages or downsides.

It's a personal thing ... I know a number of people who are now going foundationless and are convinced that there are benefits ... if you are swayed, for or against foundationless, by the posts in this thread, then follow your gut feeling. Your own path in beekeeping is the one to seek - after consideration of the available information and evidence where it exists.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

This thread is super interesting!

Do you use any varroa treatments in the hive and does that impact wax building?

 

[Tom Bick]

Do you think that the supposed (I know you are not pushing any argument for or against) benefits to the bees are more important to the brood part of the hive? In other words is natural cell size not more important for solely the brood chamber if you are using an excluder? Also do you agree/think that foundation can store chemicals and thus should be kept out of the supers too ideally?

Still trying to plan my methodology!
Thanks

I think its the comb building as a whole has big health benefits to the bees. The bees have the free run of the brood nest in what comb they want to build and again I think this has added benefits to the bees, although I do like to get them to build the comb straight. I don’t go with this small cell size as I have noticed in the worker comb cells are different sizes and some obviously bigger than foundation.

As the bees raise their young in the brood box then it would make sense that this would be the best place for natural comb’ but it may be to much for some people so if the brood box was on good quality foundation and the supers foundationless then this could be a good compromise.

I think its well known that foundation can have chemicals in it, some from treatments the beekeeper introduces and some the bees return to the hive with. I dont have the information but I understand there was a study of foundation in the US and the results quite alarming.

Interesting regarding food grade fishing line and never occurred to me, but perhaps the risk is small and perhaps not as great as all the galvanized wire in the foundation.

 

[wightbees]

As a fisherman for40 years I can say I am safely still alive after swallowing fishing line and the endless times I have bitten the line when making knots in rigs.
Including manky old bait all over it. Enjoy dinner

 

[Tom Bick]

This thread is super interesting!

Do you use any varroa treatments in the hive and does that impact wax building?

I don’t know about pargyle and it would be hard for him to comment other than this his first year although I am sure he has read up on the subject and perhaps preparing a thesis on it right now.

In my eight years I have treated my bees with thymol in late summer and on a couple of hives one year early summer with Lactic acid. Also drone cull as a varroa monitoring and reduction.

Last year (winter 2012) for the first time I tried Oxalic as I had started to make hivemakers home made thymol treatments and I was a bit worried over the efficiency so I treated four hives with the oxalic and glad to say virtually no drop. So I will be sticking to the thymol and keep all other treatments including oxalic in the background if needed.

I have one exception my TBH this has not been treated in three years and last year one of my strongest hives (as of now?) if it remains so then then? They have varroa but somehow its no great problem. I don’t claim any thing by this and to me its clear I don’t suffer greatly from varroa but things may change.
Comb building by the bees would be taking place at a time you are not treating the bees so should not impact on this process.

 

[madasafish]

I have kept TBHs for 4 years: only treated with HM's thymol syrup and thymol anti varroa recipe from here.

Never oxalic.

Very very low varroa drops - decreasing year by year,, . Normally max 2-3 a week.. Likely cause - brood breaks in our local often inhospitable microclimate.

All foundationless of course.

My soon to be commissioned Langs will be foundationless as well - I'm a miserable tight ex Scot.

 

[Tom Bick]

As I see it madasafish brood breaks caused by swarming or AS are perhaps good for the swarm with less than 20% of any potential varroa but the remaining bees and brood should have a high load of varroa and all ready to jump into the first round of eggs the new queen lays. But it does not seem to always be the case and something else is obviously at play. My theory is the drone brood and the relationship the bees have with the drones plays a part in this.

Since going foundationless I have not noticed any increase in varroa and perhaps slightly less, but that’s not to say that this year will be the same and think you have to be vigilant all the time.

 

[Greenhill Girl]

As I see it madasafish brood breaks caused by swarming or AS are perhaps good for the swarm with less than 20% of any potential varroa but the remaining bees and brood should have a high load of varroa and all ready to jump into the first round of eggs the new queen lays. But it does not seem to always be the case and something else is obviously at play. My theory is the drone brood and the relationship the bees have with the drones plays a part in this.

Since going foundationless I have not noticed any increase in varroa and perhaps slightly less, but that’s not to say that this year will be the same and think you have to be vigilant all the time.

I tried some foundationless frames last year in various guises. One I inserted into the brood box was filled with Drone comb I was concerned at the time and posted here (as Margaret Elisabeth, I have been recycled) I was re assured but was too witless to remove the comb to control the varoa load. This year I intend to modify my approach and murder the drones for two reasons Varoa control and breeding control. the hive with the new queen seems to have much more of the tendency to sting, incidentally they are darker than their grandmothers offspring. I shall replace oldest foundation comb first with foundationless.

 

[pargyle]

This thread is super interesting!

Do you use any varroa treatments in the hive and does that impact wax building?

I haven't used any varroa treatments in my hive so far, apart from a good sugar dusting when I first got the swarm last June ... I haven't seen a single varroa on the sticky board, which has been in all season and inspected almost daily - (bear in mind my hive design is a bit off the beaten track so this is not something I would recommend). I've done sugar rolls, alcohol washes and drone cell un-capping through the season and didn't find any varroa. (I'm not regsistered blind and I know what they look like ! - I've seen them in other apiaries). So ... I haven't treated. But, as Tom says, it's my first year actually with bees so it's early stages for me - I'm just following what, to me, appears the right path - at present. But, I'm not purist and if, next season, I find mites then I will re-assess my current no-treatment regime. I will, obviously, be back on the inspection/testing for varroa as soon as the season starts as it's not, IMO, wise just to 'hope' you have a low mite level.

As far as wax building is concerned you can see from the photographs of my monthly inspections what they actually achieved from the time they arrived in June until the end of the season. Whether this is related to any other factors I really can't say ... they just do what they do !

http://www.flickr.com/photos/99514363@N06/

I've used stainless steel wire (from ebay - ex China) in my home made frames and the bees have mainly built comb around it - you will see from the photos - but HM tends not to lay eggs in cells where the wires are - although pollen and honey do get put in these cells.

And I'm not writing a thesis either ... just following my nose and hoping for the best. So far I've been lucky ... or my nose has led me in the right direction ... who know ? I certainly don't !! Come back in 10 or so years and I might be a bit more confident of what I'm doing now ...

Tom's experience is much greater than mine as he has comparisons that he can make but it's encouraging that his experience without foundation is very similar to what I see.

 

[Itchy]

"HM's thymol syrup and thymol anti varroa recipe from here"

Is there a link to this?

 

[Roger]

"HM's thymol syrup and thymol anti varroa recipe from here"

Is there a link to this?

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1840

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=6513

 

[sugarbush]

I have been using foundationless frames for years. I do it a little different however as I do not use a starter strip. Before I assemble I bevel the top bar on the router table, but I have also just used a knife and shaved the edges off the bottom of the top bar and that works just as well. It only takes a few seconds to do and I rarely have any issues with the bees drawing comb straight.

 

[pargyle]

I have been using foundationless frames for years. I do it a little different however as I do not use a starter strip. Before I assemble I bevel the top bar on the router table, but I have also just used a knife and shaved the edges off the bottom of the top bar and that works just as well. It only takes a few seconds to do and I rarely have any issues with the bees drawing comb straight.

Interesting ... I use a triangular piece of timber, attached to the underside of the top bar and painted with beeswax ... and mine draw straight comb - but your method is even easier ...

 

[davnig]

This year I intend to modify my approach and murder the drones for two reasons Varoa control and breeding control. the hive with the new queen seems to have much more of the tendency to sting, incidentally they are darker than their grandmothers offspring. I shall replace oldest foundation comb first with foundationless.

Curious - what control will the breeding control part of your plan achieve?? Do you not want the genes of that particular queen from being spread?

 

[Tom Bick]

I tried some foundationless frames last year in various guises. One I inserted into the brood box was filled with Drone comb I was concerned at the time and posted here (as Margaret Elisabeth, I have been recycled) I was re assured but was too witless to remove the comb to control the varoa load. This year I intend to modify my approach and murder the drones for two reasons Varoa control and breeding control. the hive with the new queen seems to have much more of the tendency to sting, incidentally they are darker than their grandmothers offspring. I shall replace oldest foundation comb first with foundationless.

Yes one frame in a box filled with comb from foundation will produce lots of drone comb and not surprised all drone. What some people do is to drop a super frame into the bb and then cull the drone comb off the bottom when capped.

If you are concerned over temperament’ then you want to think more about the queen rather than the drones. It’s good to perhaps reduce the drones but you won’t be able to stop them all.

If you are considering foundationless then one frame at a time may not work that great, and you may end up with a greater percentage of drone comb you are happy with. I would recommend you start with say 70% foundationless frames min. Supers are the best place to experiment and get used to the bees building comb.

 

[REDWOOD]

Good job JBM, It's surprising what you can do with a few old pallets, annoying when the dam planks spilt when de-nailing though, and as for the top bars don't listen to that lot above make them 22mm wide, put spacers on the ends and slap a super on top, at least it will be a bit like a proper hive then.


I'll get my coat, and my car keys

 

[lebouche]

mine today

Heres one comb I saw today…
https://www.flickr.com/photos/84939508@N07/13523234843/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/84939508@N07/13523236303/in/photostream/

 

[Tom Bick]

Nice photos lebouche particularly like the cut out, did you do that?

I took this photo yesterday a nice frame and one of many at the moment.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I have been advised also that bees will just follow the groove in the top bar without any wax bead or starter strip - Iv'e seen it work out here,and the advice in africa is just a saw cut groove down the middle of the top bar but beware make sure the spacings are correct. All the langstroth hives out here are on European 36mm spacings. they start out drawing the comb nicely from the centre groove, but as they move along they follow their own 32mm spacing and chaos ensues! Sorry there's no photos of this but two beginners (one with no suit) a langstroth brood chocker with stores and honey covered hands are not condusive to handling a camera.

 

[Margaret Elisabeth]

Curious - what control will the breeding control part of your plan achieve?? Do you not want the genes of that particular queen from being spread?

I am back to my old self (Margaret Elisabeth) Delayed reply to the Greenhill girl post. I don't think breeding stingers is all that great so reducing the numbers of drones with the defencive gene gives others a better chance of breeding.

I think I may have lost the queen from this colony though as there is no brood as yet. Though this hive is in a cool spot and has suffered from damp by the look of mouldy pollen left in the edges of the brood box. Got the B.I. coming on Monday next week by invitation. Thinking of moving the hive next to the other colony to get more morning sun. I want to make sure there is no serious problem before doing so because of potential drift.

 

[lebouche]

Hi Tom, yes I did the cut out. Was my first return to beekeeping since being a child. I was so excited to see some bees again but it was a big job and I made some mistakes. I would prefer your frame to mine... Lots of brood in yours. The wind was picking up so I didn't get past the first brood frame.