Fondant top up query

[fullframe45]

Looking for advice on how to top up the existing fondant in my poly hives. Being only into my second full year im afraid that last autumn going into winter. i had some very light hives i should have fed more syrup. and or possibly combined a couple of colonies .With my limited knowledge i thought they would be ok . i had quite a lot of fondant and i thought i would just put a block on each excluder and directly on top of the frames. This worked the previous year.I did a quick check a couple weeks back on a rare mild day and they are taking the fondant although not much and it has gone rock hard.
It is now also stuck to the frames and excluder with depressions and voids where they have taken it from.I would like to remove and replace with newwer stuff and make sure it is on the frame and no gaps .If you follow what i mean. So they can get at it easier. I dont really want to open them up but im thinking this will give them a better chance to get on the fondant. Will i be ok just to use a small ammount of smoke as i dont wish to damage any that are present feeding .Or just try and prize the fondant off ,The cluster is under the rock hard suff. I dont want to spend too much time chilling them so need to do whatever quickly. Apologies if this sounds like a silly question. Thank you

 

[Amari]

Looking for advice on how to top up the existing fondant in my poly hives. Being only into my second full year im afraid that last autumn going into winter. i had some very light hives i should have fed more syrup. and or possibly combined a couple of colonies .With my limited knowledge i thought they would be ok . i had quite a lot of fondant and i thought i would just put a block on each excluder and directly on top of the frames. This worked the previous year.I did a quick check a couple weeks back on a rare mild day and they are taking the fondant although not much and it has gone rock hard.
It is now also stuck to the frames and excluder with depressions and voids where they have taken it from.I would like to remove and replace with newwer stuff and make sure it is on the frame and no gaps .If you follow what i mean. So they can get at it easier. I dont really want to open them up but im thinking this will give them a better chance to get on the fondant. Will i be ok just to use a small ammount of smoke as i dont wish to damage any that are present feeding .Or just try and prize the fondant off ,The cluster is under the rock hard suff. I dont want to spend too much time chilling them so need to do whatever quickly. Apologies if this sounds like a silly question. Thank you

By 'voids' do you mean that the bees have eaten holes in the fondant? If this is the case then you could lay the new fondant on the old so that the bees can come up through the voids. However, leave as much of the plastic wrapping as possible on the new fondant to delay it drying out.

 

[fullframe45]

Yes thats exactly what i mean its where they have eaten it away underneath causing for want of a better word caverns and to make it worse the plastic wrapping i had it wrapped in is now embedded in the hard fondant. Must have been earlier when they were producing more heat and the fondant was soft.

 

[Swarm]

Clean it up in spring but lay it on greaseproof paper with a few slits next time will help prevent a mess.

 

[fullframe45]

Greaseproof paper made a note of that for next year, Thank you.

 

[Boston Bees]

Some fondant does go very hard, and they may struggle to get enough water to use it I guess. So I think your plan sounds good. On the warmest day available in the next week, just quickly open them up, lever the hard stuff off, and replace with some new fondant. You probably won't need smoke, but you should have a smoker going just in case. Having the roof off for a few minutes won't hurt them.

Next year, as you have already said, start feeding anyone light in September and don't stop until they are heavy. Fondant on the frames, even soft fondant, isn't much use in very cold weather, especially in wooden hives where the bees are less able to break cluster to reach it But you already worked that out I know.

Use greaseproof paper next year by all means but I think the top and sides of the fondant should still be covered up with something to stop it drying out so quickly (and to stop bees getting stuck in it).

 

[Monbees]

Clean it up in spring but lay it on greaseproof paper with a few slits next time will help prevent a mess.

I read it that fullframe45 is wondering whether the bees can eat this hard fondant of should be try to replace it now, before spring?

Oops, l see Boston Bees has answered!

 

[Boston Bees]

I read it that fullframe45 is wondering whether the bees can eat this hard fondant of should be try to replace it now, before spring?

Oops, l see Boston Bees has answered!

It's a tough one. Bees CAN eat hard fondant, of course, but I guess it must be significantly harder for them than new soft stuff.

 

[fullframe45]

Thank you for commenting,i will do as you suggested ,the fondant i placed previously was wrapped in clingfilm slashed underneath then placed on the QX to stop it being too messy ( I THOUGHT) but i do not think the clingfilm was up to the job and split making a mess. I have now got it sealed in freezer bags and will try that. Thank you again.

 

[Boston Bees]

Thank you for commenting,i will do as you suggested ,the fondant i placed previously was wrapped in clingfilm slashed underneath then placed on the QX to stop it being too messy ( I THOUGHT) but i do not think the clingfilm was up to the job and split making a mess. I have now got it sealed in freezer bags and will try that. Thank you again.

I use A4 ziplock bags purchased in bulk on Amazon, I have to confess. I get around 2kg in each. I haven't yet settled on a technique for how to open the bottom - sometimes I cut almost the entire base of the bag out and put it on a QExcluder, sometimes I just cut a series of small holes, sometimes I slash it. Still working out the best method.

 

[Swarm]

I read it that fullframe45 is wondering whether the bees can eat this hard fondant of should be try to replace it now, before spring?

Oops, l see Boston Bees has answered!

Yes they can and Amari suggested any new could be added above the voids if it was necessary. I'd leave it as it is, doubt I'd bother adding more unless the hive was light. Don't see the point in hacking hard fondant off the frames, it won't hurt to leave it until a first Spring inspection.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Quickest result would be to put a new block on another QX and swap QXs.

Clingfilm is bad news with bees: they work to dismantle and drag it out - as they do with plastic - but clingfilm is so thin it can get embedded in the sternite gaps - the underside abdominal plates. It was distressing to to see and impossible to remove; plastic is thick enough to avoid that outcome.

Old hard fondant will be used eventually but an alternative is to dissolve it as syrup for feeding later in the year. Add thymol mixture to prevent fermentation: Peter Little's recipe is here at post 44 and a similar + info here at Dave Cushman's A-Z.

 

[Ali Brown]

A bit off topic but on the subject of fondant. Do bees store fondant at all? Or do they just eat what they need when they need it?

 

[Boston Bees]

Do bees store fondant at all?

Yes

A discussion of that can be found on Prof Evan's blog (see the comments section also):

Feeding fondant - The Apiarist

 

[Monbees]

Yes

A discussion of that can be found on Prof Evan's blog (see the comments section also):

Feeding fondant - The Apiarist

Reading the Apiarist link l see that he feeds and treats with Apiguard at the same time. Is this generally recommended, or because he is based in Scotland?

 

[fullframe45]

I have some spare XQ so that is a good sugestion (e)never even crossed my mind.Next decent mild day i will remove the existing QX and replace on the lightest hives . Another lesson learnt.The help from this forum is first class. Thank you.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Yes

A discussion of that can be found on Prof Evan's blog (see the comments section also):

Feeding fondant - The Apiarist

They certainly do store fondant, some of us on here feed fondant in stead of 2:1 syrup in the autumn.
Im yet to find fermentation in frames.
imo there is no point removing hard fondant there is enough moisture in a hive for them to use it, even if it was cold they would feed from it.

If I was going to change the fondant and there was say 2kgs on the qx I would change the qx it would be quicker and less stress for the bee's.

I've tried scraping old fondant of a QX its not the easiest thing to do and it just makes them angry.

I don't use plastic bags or clingfilm I only use parchment paper on top of the fondant then insulation CB then more insulation and roof.

The fondant is spread out over the whole area of the qx and the parchment and insulation keeps it air tight.
making sure the insulation in the eke is a really good fit No gaps.

Each to there own and much the same on beekeeper opinions.
C. G. F

Edit : Eric has already said some of the above.. Infact I think he suggested removing the qx in the past.

 

[Boston Bees]

Reading the Apiarist link l see that he feeds and treats with Apiguard at the same time. Is this generally recommended, or because he is based in Scotland?

Yes, he says this is because of the lack of late season forage where he is.

I think he suggests treating in August and September though? So I usually try to treat then (Apivar or Apiguard), at which time there is still forage here. And then in mid or late Sept, once the treatment is done, I pile on the feed if/as required.

 

[Curly green finger's]

I was wondering do either of you have ivy very locally?
Your location and late season forage /weather should define when you start feeding.
If you are using apivar strips you can feed at any time.

As to apiguard I've never used it, BUT the idea is to get them to eat the treatment.
They might prefer to consume your feed rather than the apiguard?
Feeding and treating with apiguard might not be a problem but I think I would make sure they were well into the apiguard treatment before feeding.

 

[Newbeeneil]

I was wondering do either of you have ivy very locally?
Your location and late season forage /weather should define when you start feeding.
If you are using apivar strips you can feed at any time.

As to apiguard I've never used it, BUT the idea is to get them to eat the treatment.
They might prefer to consume your feed rather than the apiguard?
Feeding and treating with apiguard might not be a problem but I think I would make sure they were well into the apiguard treatment before feeding.

As I understand it the bees don't EAT the treatments. They remove it from the hive and hence distribute it around the hive in doing so.