Fondant top up query

[Curly green finger's]

As I understand it the bees don't EAT the treatments. They remove it from the hive and hence distribute it around the hive in doing so.

It just goes to show then what I know about api guard.
On that note feeding at the same time would work then.

I still hate thymol

 

[ShinySideUp]

I use cheap plastic containers such as might be acquired from a Chinese or Indian takeaway. When I get my fondant I cut it up into lumps of a size to fit in the container then put the lid on it, this keeps it fresh seemingly forever. I have crown boards with porter bee escape-sized slots in it which are normally covered with a small piece of wood because I don't use porter escapes. When I come to use the fondant, I take the lid off the container, take the wood off one of the escape holes and quickly slap the container on upside down before replacing the roof. Done in cold weather you don't even need a bee suit as the bees are caught by surprise and haven't time to come out before the hole is sealed with the fondant container. There is no cling film or paper required and when the container is empty -- you can see because they are clear -- you just wait for another cold day, quickly take the old container off and slap the new one on; job done.

I buy the fondant in boxes of 12.5kg. The cutting up is a bit messy but after that you are totally isolated from it. No gloves, no bee suit, no mess or fuss.

I do have to put an eke on though because the containers won't fit on top of the crown board without the extra space. I made ekes out of 2 x 1 roof batten.

 

[pargyle]

They certainly do store fondant, some of us on here feed fondant in stead of 2:1 syrup in the autumn.
Im yet to find fermentation in frames.
imo there is no point removing hard fondant there is enough moisture in a hive for them to use it, even if it was cold they would feed from it.

Not always ... if they are clustered and a small colony they may not move up to the fondant or gather moisture from the hive to use it. There's at least one thread on here where the bees starved when there was fondant above them.

If I was going to change the fondant and there was say 2kgs on the qx I would change the qx it would be quicker and less stress for the bee's.

I've tried scraping old fondant of a QX its not the easiest thing to do and it just makes them angry.

I'd agree with that - certainly in cold weather - recipe for a disaster in more ways than one.

I don't use plastic bags or clingfilm I only use parchment paper on top of the fondant then insulation CB then more insulation and roof.

The fondant is spread out over the whole area of the qx and the parchment and insulation keeps it air tight. making sure the insulation in the eke is a really good fit No gaps.

Some fondant does dry up and go hard ... other fondant goes gloopy and drops down the frames and makes a mess ... depends a lot on the type of hive and the conditions in there .. and the length of time that it has been there.

Each to there own and much the same on beekeeper opinions.
C. G. F

Nothing much is constant in beekeeping - too many variables. It's better to have the stores in the comb - feeding correctly at the right time will allow them to store - I prefer Invertbee after the Ivy as they seem to take that down and store it readily in the brood box. Fondant is great for emergency feeding but I see a lot of people just plonking a great block of it on in Autumn and assuming they will be fine over winter. You have to manage the stores going into winter, get as much in to them as you can before winter starts and then - if they do eat through what they have stored - be ready to manage feeding with fondant. But .. be conscious of how big the colony is ... whether it is big enough to handle the space and manage the stores left in the brood box and reduce the space if there are empty frames. Insulation will keep them warm and able to move to the stores and a small colony can benefit from empty combs being replaced with blocks of insulation and the frames of stores moved towards the cluster. Isolation starvation in cold hives is always a threat in February which is often the coldest month in the UK,

 

[Curly green finger's]

They certainly do store fondant, some of us on here feed fondant in stead of 2:1 syrup in the autumn.
Im yet to find fermentation in frames.
imo there is no point removing hard fondant there is enough moisture in a hive for them to use it, even if it was cold they would feed from it.

Not always ... if they are clustered and a small colony they may not move up to the fondant or gather moisture from the hive to use it. There's at least one thread on here where the bees starved when there was fondant above them.

If I was going to change the fondant and there was say 2kgs on the qx I would change the qx it would be quicker and less stress for the bee's.

I've tried scraping old fondant of a QX its not the easiest thing to do and it just makes them angry.

I'd agree with that - certainly in cold weather - recipe for a disaster in more ways than one.

I don't use plastic bags or clingfilm I only use parchment paper on top of the fondant then insulation CB then more insulation and roof.

The fondant is spread out over the whole area of the qx and the parchment and insulation keeps it air tight. making sure the insulation in the eke is a really good fit No gaps.

Some fondant does dry up and go hard ... other fondant goes gloopy and drops down the frames and makes a mess ... depends a lot on the type of hive and the conditions in there .. and the length of time that it has been there.

Each to there own and much the same on beekeeper opinions.
C. G. F

Nothing much is constant in beekeeping - too many variables. It's better to have the stores in the comb - feeding correctly at the right time will allow them to store - I prefer Invertbee after the Ivy as they seem to take that down and store it readily in the brood box. Fondant is great for emergency feeding but I see a lot of people just plonking a great block of it on in Autumn and assuming they will be fine over winter. You have to manage the stores going into winter, get as much in to them as you can before winter starts and then - if they do eat through what they have stored - be ready to manage feeding with fondant. But .. be conscious of how big the colony is ... whether it is big enough to handle the space and manage the stores left in the brood box and reduce the space if there are empty frames. Insulation will keep them warm and able to move to the stores and a small colony can benefit from empty combs being replaced with blocks of insulation and the frames of stores moved towards the cluster. Isolation starvation in cold hives is always a threat in February which is often the coldest month in the UK,

Are you saying then that when I'm feeding fondant in the autumn it's the wrong thing to do.

We have 5 colonys in a three box system
And 3 won't need fondant and two have just recently had some.

They are covering 7/8 frames and haven't been dummied down, I'm not seeing much of a difference between our double brood which are dummied down and the colonys in the three box hive.
All have lots of insulation above though.

 

[pargyle]

There are people on here who feed fondant in Autumn .. it's not wrong - I just find that feeding Invertbee is better. If you think about it .. with fondant the bees have to add water to digest and then store it in the cells whereas with Invertbee (or 2:1 syrup if you can be bothered making it) they can more readily process and store it in the comb. I judge it by the speed that they take Invertbee down compared to fondant.

My view, (and I accept that I'm not a 'proper' beekeeper) is that the bees have a better chance of using stores they have put in the comb .... that's the way they do it in the wild .. and if you can make life a little easier by working with them, that's the way to go.

As I said earlier - I see people slapping a 12.5Kg slab of fondant on in Autumn and think that's the end of it ... often at a time when my bees are still bringing in their own nectar. It probably works but is it really thinking about what the bees will do and whether it best serves their interests ? I don't think so .. I try to think about what's best for them - clearly - the last thing you want is to starve your bees but, leaving them some of their own honey and feeding them appropriately and as required is the key.

Fondant is your best friend around now - if you have miscalculated or your greedy Italians in a national box without insulation have eaten their way through the stores then .. and for my money only then .. is when fondant gets fed.

If they are in well insulated boxes and the weather is not too viscious then in a tub with a hole in the bottom above the feeder hole in the crownboard as it is less mess. (Even then - I would be checking to see that they are actually using it .. with those clear plastic containers its easy to see what's happening). If they are in cold hives ... on top of the frames in a eke. The jury is out on what is the best way to feed on top of the frames ... as people have found out .. it can get messy when the fondant either goes hard or goes gloopy. Your plan using baking parchment is probably the nearest to ideal you can get.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Much the same as you Philip we have good ivy flows up here.
Not feeding syrup is an experiment on my part mainly because of hive numbers and for easy.
It might change at one site we will have 20 colonys and its a bee hatch to get to.
Perhaps I will change things around have a good store of syrup there to hand earlier rather than later.
I've never tried invertabee as yet.

You know where we live it's not the most hospitable of places as the best of times even more so in the winter.
Cheers food for thought.

 

[Murox]

Are you saying then that when I'm feeding fondant in the autumn it's the wrong thing to do.

We have 5 colonys in a three box system
And 3 won't need fondant and two have just recently had some.

They are covering 7/8 frames and haven't been dummied down, I'm not seeing much of a difference between our double brood which are dummied down and the colonys in the three box hive.
All have lots of insulation above though.

The size of the colony, being disease-free, well fed, and led by a strong queen are the "all importants" for good overwintering. How you achieve that for your bees is largely a matter of choice; some methods will be more, or less, advantageous for both you and or the bees.

 

[pargyle]

The size of the colony, being disease-free, well fed, and led by a strong queen are the "all importants" for good overwintering. How you achieve that for your bees is largely a matter of choice; some methods will be more, or less, advantageous for both you and or the bees.

Plus ... as I have quoted many time in the past from Bill Bielby's book from 1972 - Home Honey Production Page 45 'For most economical wintering hives should be highly insulated and completely draughtproof'' ... this was his statement from the revised edition in 1977 - his earlier version in 1972 went on even further to state 'There is no such thing as too much insulation'.

This lovely little book is well worth a read - there are some good ideas in there - obviously it is pre-varroa .. but many things were well ahead of his time and reflect some of the excellent research now being done by Derek Mitchell that confirm Bill's practical methods and observations. You can find the book on line and free to download here;

https://library.uniteddiversity.coop/Beekeeping/Home_Honey_Production.pdf
If nothing else you should read pages 43 to 46.

If you see it for a pound or two in a second hand book shop buy it ... classic beekeeping from a man who really knew his bees.

 

[gmonag]

Plus ... as I have quoted many time in the past from Bill Bielby's book from 1972 - Home Honey Production Page 45 'For most economical wintering hives should be highly insulated and completely draughtproof'' ... this was his statement from the revised edition in 1977 - his earlier version in 1972 went on even further to state 'There is no such thing as too much insulation'.

This lovely little book is well worth a read - there are some good ideas in there - obviously it is pre-varroa .. but many things were well ahead of his time and reflect some of the excellent research now being done by Derek Mitchell that confirm Bill's practical methods and observations. ..

Thanks for the link.
I found the book interesting but out-of-date. Many of the concepts he advocates are now debunked. Worth reading though.

 

[pargyle]

Thanks for the link.
I found the book interesting but out-of-date. Many of the concepts he advocates are now debunked. Worth reading though.

Oh I don't know ... his basic beekeeping was well ahead of his time and his ideas on insulation are only being caught up on now. It's a bit antiquated in its delivery and there's a few quirky ideas and it certainly pre-dates varroa .. but .. a nice little book as you say and worth a read. Not that many pages ..

 

[PhilN]

I'm not sure if I understand the point about the use of fondant, and if bees are resorting to consuming it being an indicator of being short on stores - maybe someone could illuminate me.
This is my first winter with bees - started in June with a nuc on 14x12. Since then I've inherited two swarm colonies (late in the season). Going into late autumn one of the colonies was super vigorous and active (my daughter calls it 'the naughty hive' because they are very active and administered the only two stings we had all season). The other two colonies were very slow to build up stores. Back in early November, worried that they might starve over winter I put fondant in upturned tupperware boxes over the crown boards with the QE removed on all three hives (about 2 kg in each hive). I didn't want to inspect stores in detail that late in the year and didn't know about 'hefting' (not that that helps because I didn't have a 'baseline weight' to assess 'stores weight')
The bees have very slowly been taking the fondant (about 3/4 gone since Nov). Does the fact that they are consuming fondant mean that there must be insufficient stores of honey - surely the fondant above the supers on the smaller hives and brood box on the 14x12 would be their last resort and less attractive compared to what should be on offer to them in the frames? I suppose the question I'm asking (in short ) is will bees take fondant only if they are short on stores - or will they consume/store it regardless? - I can't decide whether to top up the fondant at the risk of crowding out the frames with stores and in turn leaving no room for brood in a few months.
Thanks

 

[Boston Bees]

I can't decide whether to top up the fondant at the risk of crowding out the frames with stores and in turn leaving no room for brood in a few months.

I don't think there's any risk of comb getting full of food in February or March. Quite the opposite. If they are taking fondant, don't let them run out. 2kg for a hive isn't much at all so it wouldn't be surprising if they need a lot more before April. Their need for food is about to start growing rapidly as brood rearing increases.

 

[user 20297]

I'm not sure if I understand the point about the use of fondant, and if bees are resorting to consuming it being an indicator of being short on stores - maybe someone could illuminate me.
This is my first winter with bees - started in June with a nuc on 14x12. Since then I've inherited two swarm colonies (late in the season). Going into late autumn one of the colonies was super vigorous and active (my daughter calls it 'the naughty hive' because they are very active and administered the only two stings we had all season). The other two colonies were very slow to build up stores. Back in early November, worried that they might starve over winter I put fondant in upturned tupperware boxes over the crown boards with the QE removed on all three hives (about 2 kg in each hive). I didn't want to inspect stores in detail that late in the year and didn't know about 'hefting' (not that that helps because I didn't have a 'baseline weight' to assess 'stores weight')
The bees have very slowly been taking the fondant (about 3/4 gone since Nov). Does the fact that they are consuming fondant mean that there must be insufficient stores of honey - surely the fondant above the supers on the smaller hives and brood box on the 14x12 would be their last resort and less attractive compared to what should be on offer to them in the frames? I suppose the question I'm asking (in short ) is will bees take fondant only if they are short on stores - or will they consume/store it regardless? - I can't decide whether to top up the fondant at the risk of crowding out the frames with stores and in turn leaving no room for brood in a few months.
Thanks

Some good questions there and ones which I've debated with myself already.
I've avoided using fondant and I can't see any reason why most of what the bees are able to take won't be straight away put to storage in cells. Some people are putting it on in late-autumn/early winter, at a time when the bees really ought to have at least some stores in place.

 

[Erichalfbee]

This is my first winter with bees - started in June with a nuc on 14x12. Since then I've inherited two swarm colonies (late in the season). Going into late autumn one of the colonies was super vigorous and active (my daughter calls it 'the naughty hive' because they are very active and administered the only two stings we had all season). The other two colonies were very slow to build up stores.

Did you check how much they had before/after varroa treatment in the autumn?

 

[PhilN]

Did you check how much they had before/after varroa treatment in the autumn?

Yes - The 14x12 had 8 frames of around 1/4 frame stores on each (they seemed very slow to build up anything this summer - not that I've got any previous experience to compare it to) - so I went mad on 2:1 sugar syrup feeding - probably about 15-20 litres (at 2:1) before it got too cold - so put some fondant on instead (would have been about 3kg per hive). From the moment I started feeding them I didn't check again because I was under the impression that they'd stop once they had enough stores - they didn't stop, so neither did I!
I've just checked the fondant again now and all three hives have got a little under 1/2 kg left - I'm thinking I should fill the tupperwares again as I don't have to lift the CB - and the Hives are super insulated 50mm Kingspan all round and 100mm inside the roof - Is the fact they are taking fondant an indication that they have insufficient stores, or them being prudent and stashing away whatever they can find? To be honest, I'm thinking it doesn't matter and I might as well whack the fondant on that I've got - I'm not keen on Iced Buns and so I won't use the fondant for anything else!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

As to apiguard I've never used it, BUT the idea is to get them to eat the treatment.

No, it's not

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes - The 14x12 had 8 frames of around 1/4 frame stores on each (they seemed very slow to build up anything this summer - not that I've got any previous experience to compare it to) - so I went mad on 2:1 sugar syrup feeding - probably about 15-20 litres (at 2:1) before it got too cold - so put some fondant on instead (would have been about 3kg per hive). From the moment I started feeding them I didn't check again because I was under the impression that they'd stop once they had enough stores - they didn't stop, so neither did I!
I've just checked the fondant again now and all three hives have got a little under 1/2 kg left - I'm thinking I should fill the tupperwares again as I don't have to lift the CB - and the Hives are super insulated 50mm Kingspan all round and 100mm inside the roof - Is the fact they are taking fondant an indication that they have insufficient stores, or them being prudent and stashing away whatever they can find? To be honest, I'm thinking it doesn't matter and I might as well whack the fondant on that I've got - I'm not keen on Iced Buns and so I won't use the fondant for anything else!

Go to the back of the hive and put three fingers under the floor and lift a couple of cms. If it’s easy to do keep the food going. If it’s not then don’t add any more

 

[drex]

Feeding is a balancing act. If they don't have enough, they could starve and die, so in my early days I played safe and undoubtedly over fed them.
Now I know that if I over feed I am cutting down the space for the queen to lay once she gets going in spring, and risking sugar in my honey supers. Ok, I can correct that in early spring, but better if I do not have to.
It sounds to me like they have had plenty of food, but, I stress, each hive is different. Funnily enough the only time I have lost bees to starvation was in my early days.
For all hives, food consumption will increase dramatically over next couple of months once brooding starts in earnest. Bees do not know when they have " enough" and if food is available in a suitable form they will take it.
As Dani says heft and see, or even better, weigh and give us some figures to go on.

 

[fullframe45]

Seeing as how i asked the question about fondant in the first instance and i had no idea it would open a can of worms i think i should elaborate a bit more.
As i said this is my second year and although i have a great mentors they are miles away from where i live and as i dont want to be a nuiscance its not right if i am ringing up everytime i have a bit of a problem. Last year i started with three poly hives .One was brood and half one was in paynes nuc extended to take eight frames with the extensions on top and the other was poly national DB i was getting confidence and doing ok.I now know that mixed hives are not the way for me. Lesson learnt.
Anyway then the swarming started and i was not experienced enough to tackle it as it should have been done. So i ended up with eight hives and two nucs and a couple of swarms . To say i was getting confused was an understatement.
So i knew i had to feed and i did feed syrup ,but again with limited experience i did not want to feed too much and not leave any room. Hence the fondant .
Also because the swarming was happening fast ,i didnt have enough boxes and had to cobble up some to accomodate the increasing population. Then by autumn i had several light hives and before i could make up my mind wether to combine some or not . Well the weather was closing in and i thought just put fondant on and hope for the best. I place 2/3 kg blocks wrapped in cling film (yes i now know not to do that again) on the QX i did weigh them and am doing this every couple of weeks and the weight doesent vary much. Sorry for the long winded story.

 

[Boston Bees]

Seeing as how i asked the question about fondant in the first instance and i had no idea it would open a can of worms i think i should elaborate a bit more.
As i said this is my second year and although i have a great mentors they are miles away from where i live and as i dont want to be a nuiscance its not right if i am ringing up everytime i have a bit of a problem. Last year i started with three poly hives .One was brood and half one was in paynes nuc extended to take eight frames with the extensions on top and the other was poly national DB i was getting confidence and doing ok.I now know that mixed hives are not the way for me. Lesson learnt.
Anyway then the swarming started and i was not experienced enough to tackle it as it should have been done. So i ended up with eight hives and two nucs and a couple of swarms . To say i was getting confused was an understatement.
So i knew i had to feed and i did feed syrup ,but again with limited experience i did not want to feed too much and not leave any room. Hence the fondant .
Also because the swarming was happening fast ,i didnt have enough boxes and had to cobble up some to accomodate the increasing population. Then by autumn i had several light hives and before i could make up my mind wether to combine some or not . Well the weather was closing in and i thought just put fondant on and hope for the best. I place 2/3 kg blocks wrapped in cling film (yes i now know not to do that again) on the QX i did weigh them and am doing this every couple of weeks and the weight doesent vary much. Sorry for the long winded story.

Great summary. Thank you for your honesty, and welcome to beekeeping! Gets a bit intense at times doesn't it. Well done for catching all those swarms by the way - better that than they vanish into someone's chimney.