Drones in a bait hive.

[patl]

So, the bait hive outside my front door attracted a swarm on monday morning which I moved into my apiary a mile or so away in the evening. Yesterday evening I took up the rest of the stragglers who were still knocking around the bait hive.
Most of today, there's been only a couple of bees anywhere near the bait hive, then this afternoon its covered in drones. probably around 10-15 drones and maybe 5 workers who seem to be occasionally feeding the drones around the entrance. I've checked that a queen hasn't appeared in the hive but its empty. other than these few workers.
My best (if somewhat implausible) guess is that it still smells of virgin queen from the swarm and these drones have got confused on the way to a DCA. Any ideas?

 

[Saluki]

Personally I think DCAs are a man made phenomenon caused by having hundreds of hives in a small location. Expecting the queen to travel miles to such as an area seems an unnecessary high risk strategy. It seems much more likely to me that drones move from hive to hive and spread out that way. Mating then occurs close to the hive (lookup apiary vicinity mating).

Last July I caught my first swarm in a bait hive. It had a virgin queen and when I watched them over the first few days there was a noticeable number of drones around the hive. I know it was a virgin Queen because the new emerging bees were darker than those that came with the swarm.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Personally I think DCAs are a man made phenomenon caused by having hundreds of hives in a small location..

Is this just a thought or have you evidence for this?
DCAs are definitely a contrivance to prevent inbreeding but they occur in other Apis species and have been studied widely.
Apiary vicinity matings are considered an adaptation to adverse climate and certainly cannot be relied on considering the lengths breeders go to with isolated mating stations.
Has anybody any other ideas?

 

[bingevader]

My best (if somewhat implausible) guess is that it still smells of virgin queen from the swarm and these drones have got confused on the way to a DCA. Any ideas?

Why would your guess be implausible if it is a recently frequented bait hive?
The girls seem easily enough confused, why not the boys?
I went out to a swarm at the beginning of the week.
Turned out it had arrived the day before and was long gone by the time I got there.
There were plenty of aimless stragglers.
We've taken to using air freshener when collecting swarms, to try and remove the smell of pheromone (not on the bait hive!).
It works very well!

 

[Saluki]

Is this just a thought or have you evidence for this?

I don't have any evidence, I just don't see how they could work here in Cornwall. Most of the studies on DCAs in honeybees have been done abroad with extreme topography (the alps?) on other subspecies I think? I'm not doubting that congregations of drones form because I'm sure drones will be attracted to groups of other drones ("hey they must know something over there" type thing). Put enough drones in one place and congregations are bound to form like a murmuration. I suppose it is feasible that queens could then sniff out these drones and head in their direction if they detect one.

The late Peter Tomkins spoke about DCAs at his National Honey Show lecture. I don't have enough post counts to be able to post a proper hyperlink ( 70 Years, Man and Bee by Peter Tomkins at 1:01:25 youtu.be/4lIremKFRm4?t=3685 ).

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I don't have any evidence, I just don't see how they could work here in Cornwall.

I know that Cornwall seems to 'special' in more than one way but why should it be totally different as far as DCAs go.
I think your 'theory' holds less water than a broken colander.

 

[Saluki]

I'm on the coast so that naturally halves the number of drones in the area. Cornwall isn't exactly known for its trees so what is the natural density of colonies (some clever clogs is going to tell me it had trees until they were cut down)? There are large gaps between wooded areas. We certainly don't have mountains. Nor do we have steep river valleys that bees could follow. Yes there are plenty of other places in the UK that share these lack of features, but we don't have the same landscape as the alps (the landscape of DCA studies) which was my point.

 

[Erichalfbee]

where’s For Want of a Better Word when you need him?
Dave, Do you get DCAs in Cornwall

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

where’s For Want of a Better Word when you need him?
Dave, Do you get DCAs in Cornwall

probably laughing too much to type

 

[Saluki]

How about the resident 'know it all' answering the original question in this thread? Why are the drones at the empty bait hive?

It seems to me there are only two possibilities. The drones came with the swarm and orientated at that location like the worker stragglers. If that is the case why haven't they been seen on previous days? And why did they come with the swarm, for what purpose if they are related? Are they related or have they drifted into the hive that swarmed? Do they guide the virgin queen to the DCA of their choice?

The second possibility is the drones have been attracted by the scent of a virgin queen. But why would they do this if the queen only mates in distant DCAs (beyond the reach of the local drone population)?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Swarms do contain drones
How virgin queens get to DCAs is contentious. Some theorise that experienced foragers know where the DCAs are and shepherd the new queen out. It’s one explanation for mating swarms.

 

[beeno]

Swarms do contain drones
How virgin queens get to DCAs is contentious. Some theorise that experienced foragers know where the DCAs are and shepherd the new queen out. It’s one explanation for mating swarms.

As far as I am aware there are no evidence to back up the hypothesis of "mating swarms". I do believe that what people are witnessing are aborted swarm attempts when the mated queen or a virgin does not go with the swarm therefore the swarm returns to the hive as bees do not swarm without a queen.

 

[beeno]

So, the bait hive outside my front door attracted a swarm on monday morning which I moved into my apiary a mile or so away in the evening. Yesterday evening I took up the rest of the stragglers who were still knocking around the bait hive.
Most of today, there's been only a couple of bees anywhere near the bait hive, then this afternoon its covered in drones. probably around 10-15 drones and maybe 5 workers who seem to be occasionally feeding the drones around the entrance. I've checked that a queen hasn't appeared in the hive but its empty. other than these few workers.
My best (if somewhat implausible) guess is that it still smells of virgin queen from the swarm and these drones have got confused on the way to a DCA. Any ideas?

Bees have a very acute sense of smell particularly the drones. These sense organs are located on their antenna and are particularly sensitive to queen pheromones from virgin queens. These pheromones linger for a few days where the queen has been present and attracts stragglers from the swarm. This is how Colin Butler discovered queen substance!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

As far as I am aware there are no evidence to back up the hypothesis of "mating swarms". I do believe that what people are witnessing are aborted swarm attempts when the mated queen or a virgin does not go with the swarm therefore the swarm returns to the hive as bees do not swarm without a queen.

You're perfectly entitled to have an opinion although IMHO the wrong one