Double Brood,How To?

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gardening-girl

New Bee
Joined
Jan 19, 2013
Messages
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Location
Ilminster.Somerset.
Hive Type
National
I got my colony of bees last July,and they have overwintered in a National Brood Box.They have had some fondant,but I see that they are now bringing in pollen.
The lady who I did a lot of practical work with last year has told me to put on another brood box,when I do my first inspection.
What she didn`t explain, was how to configure the foundation over the two boxes.
I only have new foundation,I do have dummy boards.
Please could someone point me in the right direction.
:confused::thanks:
 
I got my colony of bees last July,and they have overwintered in a National Brood Box.They have had some fondant,but I see that they are now bringing in pollen.
The lady who I did a lot of practical work with last year has told me to put on another brood box,when I do my first inspection.
What she didn`t explain, was how to configure the foundation over the two boxes.
I only have new foundation,I do have dummy boards.
Please could someone point me in the right direction.
:confused::thanks:

Do you have another National Brood Box with frames ? Or just some sheets of foundation ?

Plenty of beekeepers manage without going to double brood in National Boxes but you will need supers (for your honey) and you will need to keep an eye on how fast they are expanding the colony. Either way, in due course, you WILL need another full brood box with frames (and foundation) as you will either end up splitting them to keep two manageable colonies (which in your second year would be my preference) or have the second Brood box for Double Brood.

You could, also, consider brood and a half (using a super as an extra brood area).

But ... Bigger colonies can be a challenge for a new(ish) beekeeper ...

Might pay you to get a book such as the 'Haynes Manual of Beekeeping' and follow that through ... so you know in advance what to do before you need it to solve the problems arising from not knowing what to do !

It's still early in the season so no need to panic about double brood yet ... just need to make your preparations for what WILL happen later in the season - IE: Swarming if you don't keep on top of them !
 
I got my colony of bees last July,and they have overwintered in a National Brood Box.They have had some fondant,but I see that they are now bringing in pollen.
The lady who I did a lot of practical work with last year has told me to put on another brood box,when I do my first inspection.
What she didn`t explain, was how to configure the foundation over the two boxes.
I only have new foundation,I do have dummy boards.
Please could someone point me in the right direction.
:confused::thanks:

Relax!

Firstly "First Inspection" (note the capital letters!) this is the spring cleaning session when things have warmed up and the season is properly under way.
Only the ultra-orthodox would make things harder than need be by denying themselves the opportunity to check BEFORE THEN how their bees are doing.

This current mild spell provides an opportunity for basic colony assessment.
- have they got enough stores to last them until you are likely to check again?
- is there a good indication of healthy worker brood? (and some open brood?) No need to go searching for the Queen!
- and is there still plenty empty comb for Q to lay in?
- and of course you'd like to see no shortage of bees in the hive ...

From that basic eyeballing you can see what stage they are at.
They'd be doing well to have more than a couple of frames of brood right now.


OK. Double brood. You'd only be thinking of that when they start to be filling the existing brood box - brood on almost all (8?) of the frames.
No rush.

There's no magic about double brood. Just take the current brood box off the floor. Put on another brood box, filled with (foundation) frames, lift the old brood on top and you have double brood. The bees will draw out the new frames as and when they feel they need them.

If your bees don't really need double brood (most don't), then the top box will gradually fill up with honey. This is pretty damn heavy to lift on and off at every inspection.
However, one beefarmer reason for using double brood is the hope that swarm cells would be built between the boxes - where you can spot them during a very brief "tipping" inspection.
Another reason is that splitting a double brood hive to two single broods is one of the easiest ways of "making increase" (getting more colonies).

Some would advocate going double by rearranging the frames to make a two-high, narrow colony bounded by dummy boards, and being given only one frame of foundation in each box at any one time. I'm not sure that is better, and I'm certain that it is more fuss!


My suggestion is that you should discuss with your mentor the reasons for her suggestion, and how she would go about things.
One of the most important things for a beginner to understand is where they are heading. Any advice has an implicit direction of travel. You need to make sure that you and your mentor have the same assumptions!
Double brood means dealing with heavy boxes at every inspection, and never knowing which box the Q might be in!
For double brood, the CWJ poly boxes make some sense. Holding one frame less, and being poly, they are more than 10% lighter to move. And they are exactly the same external size as wooden boxes, so work with wooden floors, roofs, etc.

Brood and a half is adequate for most colonies, but is much much less flexible. The half-box is also lighter! My choice of 14x12 gives me brood and a half brood space, simple single brood inspections ... and a bloody heavy lump on the rare occasions I need to move a colony!

Talk through the whys, the hows and the whens. Don't accept instructions like "go double brood" without understanding where you are headed.
 
I see you're based in Somerset - where it's normal to configure your hive for 72,000 cells - which is why most Somerset beeks are using commercial hives - our soft winters and long summers mean nationals are soon full and so double brood is necessary. Nationals don't cut it in the West Country.
 
Hello gardening-girl,
Double brood is very advantageous and not the fuss that some make out. The easiest approach would be another chamber of foundation beneath the existing one, if these temps keep up there'd be no problem doing it next opportunity, the brood and bees will not suffer heat loss. When the nest expands you can swap the chambers around.

I generally inspect the top box and go through both if and when queen cells are found, so no excessive lifting (apart from supers). If necessary you can split the boxes, pop a crownboard on the bottom chamber while you move the other to a more convenient place away from any snotty bees.
 
I do find people are excessively dubious about double brood until they've worked with it. Would also agree that it's not a natural 1st/2nd season step - people usually spend a few more seasons tackling congestion-driven swarming first before realising the impact that (in)sufficient brood nest space has.

There's no magic about double brood. Just take the current brood box off the floor. Put on another brood box, filled with (foundation) frames, lift the old brood on top and you have double brood. The bees will draw out the new frames as and when they feel they need them.

My only comment would be that in the above you have the boxes the wrong way around - new/empty box goes on top of the brood for the bees to work upwards into. Particularly important if it's a box of foundation to be drawn. Adding a brood box below the existing one is useful later in the season if you want deep frames of pollen in quantity.

Brood and a half is adequate for most colonies, but is much much less flexible.

Too generous, even given the caveat :) It's such a restrictive bodge, particularly when the OP wisely has a spare brood box to hand (for any & all eventualities).
 
I see you're based in Somerset - where it's normal to configure your hive for 72,000 cells - which is why most Somerset beeks are using commercial hives - our soft winters and long summers mean nationals are soon full and so double brood is necessary. Nationals don't cut it in the West Country.


All very well,but I have the Nationals,can`t afford to change everthing.
 
The lady who I did a lot of practical work with last year has told me to put on another brood box,when I do my first inspection.
What she didn`t explain, was how to configure the foundation over the two boxes.
Please could someone point me in the right direction.
:confused::thanks:

Take a new box of frames with foundation and place it under your current box of brood. That is all you have to do.
 
My only comment would be that in the above you have the boxes the wrong way around - new/empty box goes on top of the brood for the bees to work upwards into.

bees work downwards..
 
Stick with National, no need to change.

Some modern strains of bees can develop very large nests through the brood cycle, restricting the size of the nest is a sure way to lose your bees to a swarm.
So, allow the nest to expand naturally and add brood boxes as needed until the nest has reached it's peak.

Don't forget, more foragers = more honey !
 
I've never seen bees building comb from the bottom upwards.

They build from the top.......queen lay eggs,,, workers build more comb downwards and queen follows the new comb...... the cells vacated by new brood are filled with stores........ and still the queen goes downwards following the new comb. Come winter time, the food is upstairs, and the bees work their way upwards........
Where would you put an extra brood box if you had a super on?

That'll be why we put our supers underneath the brood box(es) then...?

doesnt matter what size box you put underneath......bees will put the honey up top,,,
 
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All very well,but I have the Nationals,can`t afford to change everthing.

Conscious that the opinion-airing may not be helping your predicament, may I suggest that if you see that there are 8 or more good-sized frames of brood and there is a flow on (nectar coming in in quantity) then you could add the second brood box above the first.

Best done whilst the oilseed rape is in flower, if you have some nearby, since that will give an abundance of income with which to draw the extra wax at a time of year that the colony just wants to expand.

It helps to move up a couple of frames of open brood into the top box, and move down the displaced foundation, placing it at the edges of the remaining brood frames.

Also, if you have not yet applied foundation to frames, it is worth giving one frame just a 1" deep strip of foundation under the top bar as a starter strip. Place this at the edge of existing brood nest (inside of any frames of stores) and the bees will draw it as drone if they have any inclination to do so, worker otherwise. That way all your nice new foundation will (should!) be drawn fairly consistently as worker with the drone urges applied to the starter strip. The drone comb then has some additional uses for varroa monitoring (uncapping) and control (removal if mite count >= 5 per 100).

To work a double brood comfortably, ensure you have flat roofs and a second (spare) roof to hand when inspecting. Take off the hive's roof, invert on the ground as a stand behind the hive, place any supers on here. Invert the 2nd roof next to this, take off the top brood box and place on the 2nd roof. Start inspections in the bottom brood box, then inspect the top brood box - do it the other way round and you'll displace many bees into the bottom box by the time you get to it. Thus you can easily work either brood box and transfer / reorganise combs between them as desired. Reassembly is (as I'm sure the Haynes Bee Manual will say) the reverse of the above.

On an ongoing basis, I try to keep roughly 2/3 brood combs downstairs, 1/3 brood plus space centred above this upstairs.

This is a photo I use frequently. Triple brood commercial colonies, 24 & 27 frames with brood, June 2006 (last really good season hereabouts). I was running a test of single-depth boxes, from which I concluded that (a) it's a good idea for flexibility, but (b) a full Commercial deep is inappropriately heavy. Triple brood is unusual but not unheard of.

Dan%20working%20bees%20800x600.jpg
 
I've never seen bees building comb from the bottom upwards.

I wasn't talking about comb - which I agree they generally build from top down - but rather their use of available space when it is presented to them, expansion of the broodnest, etc.
 
I wasn't talking about comb - which I agree they generally build from top down - but rather their use of available space when it is presented to them, expansion of the broodnest, etc.
exactly.......
If they build downwards then they will do the same if you bung a box of foundation underneath as opposed to above because that is where they want to put their stores.........
 
Well ... Beekeeping is never simple is it ? If you are not confused and indecisive now you never will be .. what it does show is that there is always more than one RIGHT way in beekeeping and your sole aim as a beginner has to be to learn from everyone and then make your own mind up what you are going to do. Some of the time it will be wrong but most times you can still put things back together without a disaster.

For me ... it's what really makes beekeeping interesting and a challenge .. it teaches you to think, consider, plan and then act and then have a Plan B for when it all goes belly up !

Good luck, whatever you decide to do !! The bees will usually forgive you ...
 
exactly.......
If they build downwards then they will do the same if you bung a box of foundation underneath as opposed to above because that is where they want to put their stores.........

You're still confusing the orientation of comb building with the movement of a brood cluster within available space.

I don't think we're really adding much to the discussion of double brood pros/cons now.
 

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