Double Brood,How To?

[gardening-girl]

Thanks for all advice.I will ponder on.
I think that Dan`s answer seems very concise,and quite possibly what my friend meant.

 

[Dishmop]

You're still confusing the orientation of comb building with the movement of a brood cluster within available space.

I don't think we're really adding much to the discussion of double brood pros/cons now.

Ok but just one more then..
if you had a brood box and a super on top of it and wanted to add another brood box, where would you put it?

 

[pargyle]

or look for a new home..

Yes... but they fly off HAPPY ...

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

That'll be why we put our supers underneath the brood box(es) then...?

They will quite happily expand upwards - at a steady but manageable pace.

DanBee; seems to me you're back posting after a bit less posting the last several months and I just want to say I enjoy your posts so am glad to see that. This is all really useful (my dirty little secret is I overwintered on double brood).

 

[Swarm]

Nothing wrong with overwintering on doubles.

The new box could go top or bottom, at this time of year I'd stick it under as there's less heat loss for the bees. You can simply swap them around when it get's warmer, your brood will be more in the top chamber until later on in the season when backfilling will occur. The other good thing with a strong double colony is their ability to forage late nectar, an excellent way to help out any weaker colonies you have and save on the sugar bill.

 

[Hivemaker.]

I always add a second brood chamber of foundation on top of the existing one, and lift a frame of brood from the lower chamber to place in the center of the top box, frame of foundation replaces this frame of brood in the bottom box, placed towards the outside of the box, feed thin syrup if no nectar flow, when they have drawn out several of the top frames of foundation i place any containing just stores to the outer walls of the box, moving any remaining undrawn foundation frames towards the center, plus place drawn comb back into bottom box and move foundation frame up to the top, unless already drawn (they often don't)... this way the combs get well drawn right to the bottom bars, and the heat above helps the wax drawing process, i also often queen exclude a single box, and add a super for a while before adding a second brood box if only foundation...add the second brood when they are working the super well with plenty of bees.

Much the same as Dan really

 

[Dishmop]

I have nearly always had double brood but cut them down last year so I became a four hive owner, but because of the late spring and late queen mating two are stronger than the other two. All have supers on.

 

[Dishmop]

I always add a second brood chamber of foundation on top of the existing one, and lift a frame of brood from the lower chamber to place in the center of the top box, frame of foundation replaces this frame of brood in the bottom box, placed towards the outside of the box, feed thin syrup if no nectar flow, when they have drawn out several of the top frames of foundation i place any containing just stores to the outer walls of the box, moving any remaining undrawn foundation frames towards the center, plus place drawn comb back into bottom box and move foundation frame up to the top, unless already drawn (they often don't)... this way the combs get well drawn right to the bottom bars, and the heat above helps the wax drawing process, i also often queen exclude a single box, and add a super for a while before adding a second brood box if only foundation...add the second brood when they are working the super well with plenty of bees.

My brain engaged neutral half way thro that..

 

[Hivemaker.]

My brain engaged neutral half way thro that..

Ok but just one more then..
if you had a brood box and a super on top of it and wanted to add another brood box, where would you put it?

I add the second brood in between the two.

 

[itma]

I always add a second brood chamber of foundation on top of the existing one, and lift a frame of brood from the lower chamber to place in the center of the top box, frame of foundation replaces this frame of brood in the bottom box, placed towards the outside of the box, feed thin syrup if no nectar flow, when they have drawn out several of the top frames of foundation i place any containing just stores to the outer walls of the box, moving any remaining undrawn foundation frames towards the center, plus place drawn comb back into bottom box and move foundation frame up to the top, unless already drawn (they often don't)... this way the combs get well drawn right to the bottom bars, and the heat above helps the wax drawing process, i also often queen exclude a single box, and add a super for a while before adding a second brood box if only foundation...add the second brood when they are working the super well with plenty of bees.

Much the same as Dan really

Yes, if you do choose to put it on top you have more work to do.

The empty top box - far from the brood area - is a pretty cold and unwelcoming place to draw new wax (which needs hot bees).
The bees start drawing the comb at the top of the frame - the furthest from the brood nest!
Putting some brood up there does indeed force them to have bees and warmth up there.


In contrast, if you put the foundation box beneath, you need to ... just ... wait.
And they will draw it if they need it, when they need it.
The new wax is made and applied close to the brood nest, so the wax making process is a much easier (cheaper on energy = less honey loss), so also quicker, process than drawing foundation way away from where the mass of bees are.


If I might correct Dan slightly.
The natural thing for bees to do is to extend their comb downwards.
In feral nests, the brood nest starts near the top and migrates lower, as new comb is made and honey is stored above the brood.
A super is an un-natural situation for the bees - storing honey where Q can't possibly get to? It is part of the artifice of beekeeping and honey production - not the bees behaviour.
The Warré hive, ghastly though it may be for beekeeping, seeks to replicate the natural action of combs being extended *downwards*. You don't put 'supers' on a Warré - you add empty boxes *under* the brood ...


In short, you could just chuck an empty box on top, but that is a pretty poor way of doing things. With all that implies for costs and chances of success. (Try it with a brand new box, new frames and foundation - and watch them swarm rather than bother with the void above!)
Or you can mess about as Hivemaker describes, and try to encourage/drive the bees to do something unnatural.
But if you keep shunting frames about, you will get all the frames fully drawn (to the beekeepers satisfaction) - at the expense of the bees being unable to much else at that time.


Or you can just put it underneath and let them draw and use it when and if they care to. Likely a bit at a time.

This one should be a no-brainer.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Or you can mess about as Hivemaker describes, and try to encourage/drive the bees to do something unnatural.

Thank you for the remarks about my complete incompetence... i find they draw the combs faster and much better quality above, usually around four to five days to draw a full standard national box, and much less work for me and the bees being above in the warm and not down in the cold avoiding drawing comb right to the bottom bars.

 

[Finman]

.

Just leave the excluder off , and the queen has so many brood frames as it needs.

Then you need not to think, how bees draw combs. They draw new when they need them more for honey or for brood and pollen. They draw them best during nectar flow.






.

 

[fiftyjon]

Thank you for the remarks about my complete incompetence... i find they draw the combs faster and much better quality above, usually around four to five days to draw a full standard national box, and much less work for me and the bees being above in the warm and not down in the cold avoiding drawing comb right to the bottom bars.

My vote is with Hivemaker and his messing about, if I had just a bit of his incompetence I would be pleased.



and agree with DanBee.

 

[itma]

Thank you for the remarks about my complete incompetence... i find they draw the combs faster and much better quality above, usually around four to five days to draw a full standard national box, and much less work for me and the bees being above in the warm and not down in the cold avoiding drawing comb right to the bottom bars.

I'm sure you know that I have made no such remarks. Ever.

The bees can indeed be encouraged to draw out the box faster, and thus likely more evenly, by beekeeper manipulation. But they are being directed to an extra task, which leaves less beepower for everything else.

My point was that colonising space above the brood is not the bees natural action.
The natural action is to store honey above the brood and as the stores expand, the broodnest is moved lower, and the bees accordingly extend the comb *downwards* as required.

For the beginner (remembering the section of the forum AND the OP's question) I think that the appropriate advice has to be slanted towards what is most likely to be successfully achievable by the inexperienced beekeeper.
Accordingly, what is the practice of professionals with hundreds of hives and a lifetime's experience with bees might not be best for those without those skills and that background. Because they don't have those skills and background.

For the beginner - I think its important to keep it simple, and keep it do-able (by the beginner).
And the simplest thing here is to let the bees do it their natural way.
Isn't it?

 

[REDWOOD]

Same as a Bailey comb change with a new BB with foundation on top, endorsed by FERA

 

[itma]

Well ... Beekeeping is never simple is it ? If you are not confused and indecisive now you never will be .. what it does show is that there is always more than one RIGHT way in beekeeping and your sole aim as a beginner has to be to learn from everyone and then make your own mind up what you are going to do. Some of the time it will be wrong but most times you can still put things back together without a disaster.

For me ... it's what really makes beekeeping interesting and a challenge .. it teaches you to think, consider, plan and then act and then have a Plan B for when it all goes belly up !

 

[Erichalfbee]

From Wally Shaw's talk to our BKA

 

[sipa]

I do the same as Hivemaker, chimney a couple of brood frames up into the second brood box replace with foundation and fill up the remaining space with foundation.

Had them draw the whole lot in a few days.

 

[BILL.HEARD]

I do the same as Hivemaker, chimney a couple of brood frames up into the second brood box replace with foundation and fill up the remaining space with foundation.

Had them draw the whole lot in a few days.

This the way I have always done it, and to get the combs built to the bottom bar.

 

[Tom Bick]

Obviously the empty brood box on top is going to be a fast way of getting the frames drawn but you have to get your timing right a nice full hive with bees and plenty of capped brood so basically a small population explosion about to happen. I have seen a number of times people trying this on way to few bees and all that happens is the hives expansion slows down for a good few weeks. I have adopted the brood box on the bottom and when happy with the start on the new frames ( they won't be fully built) I switch the boxes to encourage them to finish it's a sort of 50-50 approach. I think perhaps it's my liberal approach to life that makes this system work for me.