Do two colonies grow faster than one?

[Do224]

I have two small colonies, each on perhaps three frames. Both are swarms that were caught recently.

One definitely has a laying queen and I expect the other has too, although I haven’t checked yet.

Given their size, I presume I’m best off combining them given its now late July…?

However, I’m not sure if I should combine now or later in the year…say in September. Will they do better if united as one colony now or left to build up individually and combined later?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Will they do better if united as one colony now or left to build up individually and combined later?

united ASAP as they will have a larger workforce for expansion and brood rearing thus would overtake two smaller colonies.

 

[enrico]

Unless you want two colonies. In which case nurse them through winter and they will expand in spring. It is only July!!!

 

[Do224]

Unless you want two colonies. In which case nurse them through winter and they will expand in spring. It is only July!!!

I would love to keep them as two colonies, but I had a similar situation last year with two small colonies and I lost them both during the winter. They had loads of stores but still perished.

What would you recommend I do and what do you think my chances are of overwintering them successfully? I’ve vaped them both while they were broodless so hopefully varroa load is low. My nucs are made of 12mm plywood so presume I would need to insulate well

 

[enrico]

I am not sure how quickly winter comes in Cumbria but here in the south I reckon to get my feeding finished by beginning of October. Between now and then, if the queen's are laying I see no reason why you can't have them in a full size brood box. Put a kingspan type jacket over the hive as added protection . I can send you a photo of one if you want. As long as they have stores I don't see a problem. I am waiting for two hives to get new queen's and have no worries about getting them through winter.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

What would you recommend I do

It's always better to have one strong colony to overwinter than two mediocre ones (whatever the BBKA dogma says) so I would unite and leave them build up for winter

 

[ericbeaumont]

They had loads of stores but still perished.

Probably not enough bees, resulting in isolation starvation, especially if the box was too big.

Narrowing window of opportunity to get sufficient bees to ram both 6-frame nuc boxes with bees and stores.

Wasps may predate soon, and as foraging forces will be weak, suggest you feed to keep the queens laying. Don't spill any.

Could always overwinter as 2 x 3-frame nucs in a BS twin poly.

If the second queen fails to mate, or disappears, your dilemma is answered. Check after 3-4 weeks, although small colonies mate quicker.

Having said that, JBM is right: one strong is better than two weak. Splitting in high season to make increase is far easier.

 

[enrico]

Probably not enough bees, resulting in isolation starvation, especially if the box was too big.

Narrowing window of opportunity to get sufficient bees to ram both 6-frame nuc boxes with bees and stores.

Wasps may predate soon, and as foraging forces will be weak, suggest you feed to keep the queens laying. Don't spill any.

Could always overwinter as 2 x 3-frame nucs in a BS twin poly.

If the second queen fails to mate, or disappears, your dilemma is answered. Check after 3-4 weeks, although small colonies mate quicker.

Having said that, JBM is right: one strong is better than two weak. Splitting in high season to make increase is far easier.

Really? We still have a week of July left and he has at least one mature laying queen and possibly two. I agree that we need to know the state of hive 2 but......

 

[Do224]

Wasps may predate soon, and as foraging forces will be weak, suggest you feed to keep the queens laying. Don't spill any.

How much should I be feeding…as much as they’ll take? Presume 1:1 mix

 

[ericbeaumont]

Regularly, as they take it. 1:1 is OK in this weather, 3:2 fine, 2:1 too early.

 

[ericbeaumont]

We still have a week of July left

This time last year there was a nectar dearth and queens went off lay for many weeks.

3-frame nucs are riskier at this time not just for that reason, but because wasps love them unless rammed with bees.

 

[Do224]

This time last year there was a nectar dearth and queens went off lay for many weeks.

3-frame nucs are riskier at this time not just for that reason, but because wasps love them unless rammed with bees.

I did see some wasps going in and out yesterday…not many but a few. I reduced the entrance right down and it seemed to help, I saw a couple get chased off after that. I’ll inspect today and see what’s happening. Do wasps just rob the stores or should I be looking for other issues they cause too?

 

[ericbeaumont]

Do wasps just rob the stores or should I be looking for other issues

Termination of the nuc: they eat bees.

Once scout wasps establish the location of a weak colony they will be relentless in attack.

Only real option is to move the nucs 2-3 miles away, out of wasp flying range.

 

[pargyle]

I did see some wasps going in and out yesterday…not many but a few. I reduced the entrance right down and it seemed to help, I saw a couple get chased off after that. I’ll inspect today and see what’s happening. Do wasps just rob the stores or should I be looking for other issues they cause too?

I'd have some real worries about that .. a colony of any size will not allow wasps past the entrance without a fight ... I think, in these circumstances, I'd combine the two colonies into either a single nuc or a hive dummied down to 5 or 6 frames.

If you can't move them away I would also look at some means of wasp prevention .... I've used wasp screens on Nucs with some success - they are easy to make up but this gives you an idea of what they are like.

https://www.kiwimana.co.nz/robbing-screen-wasp-and-robbing-honey-bees-afb/
The underfloor entrance also appears to be a wasp deterrent.

 

[Ian123]

With any nucs or small colonies if you unite or not keep the entrance small. In my wooden nucs they have an 18mm round hole that’s about 2 inches long, even when rammed with bees they don’t require more! Particularly as temps drop make sure frames with brood are right by the door, clustered bees are a good defensive.

 

[Beesnaturally]

This is what I'd consider doing: put out _plenty_ of wasp traps, both right by the entrance and scattered about. Fit robbing screens. Give them clean comb (I'm using empty shallow comb in a similar situation) Keep the entrance tiny - one in/one out size. Keep the brood nest near the entrance. See how they get on. You might well find yourself with two nucs more than capable of getting through the winter and blowing up nicely in the spring. I'd put fondant on as soon as the forage gets thin and keep it on, refreshing now and then. Much depends on the weather, and it wont' hurt to combine them later, unless they lose both queens in the process.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

put out _plenty_ of wasp traps

unless they're high efficiency ones, all they will do is attract more wasps to the area

 

[Do224]

Just inspected both colonies…not what I expected. The queen right one has exploded and looks like they might be capable of filling a brood box all on their own. I’ve moved a couple of empty frames within the brood nest to encourage them and left them to it.

The other colony not so good. This was the first inspection after catching them as a small swarm about three weeks ago. There was capped brood and also larvae….there was also half a dozen queen cells, one of which was capped. I knocked them all down apart from one open one that had a larvae in. I have no idea what is going on…? No sign of the queen

 

[madasafish]

I now unite weak colonies in early July as by now we start having wasp issues with weak colonies.
As above, once wasps find a weakness , the hive is doomed (unless you move it to a wasp free area).

Better one hive in Spring than none.

 

[Ian123]

Just inspected both colonies…not what I expected. The queen right one has exploded and looks like they might be capable of filling a brood box all on their own. I’ve moved a couple of empty frames within the brood nest to encourage them and left them to it.

The other colony not so good. This was the first inspection after catching them as a small swarm about three weeks ago. There was capped brood and also larvae….there was also half a dozen queen cells, one of which was capped. I knocked them all down apart from one open one that had a larvae in. I have no idea what is going on…? No sign of the queen

Check she’s not a drone layer or multiple eggs in cells on the small one.. looks rather like the decision has been made for you!