Disapearing Bees

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Marie Celeste syndrome is just another term for CCD.

The typical picture of a CCD hive caused by earlier neonicotinoid exposure would be the queen plus handful of bees still in the hive as well as stores, but all the rest of the bees gone.

Seems you have a slight variation of the above scenario, but I would not exclude neonic poisoning as a reason for the disappearance of your bees.

I think the winds picked up - i can hear the sh!thouse door banging again!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I spy with my little eye something beginning with .... n ....

NUTTER?

 

[madasafish]

Originally Posted by Stromnessbees
I know the situation in Europe very well: after all, German is my first language and I speak some French and Italian as well.


The massive problem of empty hives in autumn/early winter there has been attributed to varroa - by the Bee-Institutes, not by the beekeepers!

The problem is, that the Bee-Institutes receive their funding from Bayer, the producer of neonicotinoids.

The beekeepers know fair well, that neonics are the real reason behind their empty hives, even if varroa is sometimes the final straw.

And why else were certain neonics banned in several European countries?!



and in reply to my request for proof. about European beekeepers

Originally Posted by madasafish
So no doubt you will produce written proof of that extraordinary allegation that Beekeepers KNOW the cause of death is neonics... and not just an unverified statement made by you.
You can have written proof, but in the meantime a video of another beekeeper who is not too shy to say what he knows, this time in English:

http://www.linktv.org/video/7800/col...ld-on-bee-loss

"

Time for the Uk beekeepers to wake up and smell the coffee





So I ask a simple question about proof of European beekeepers claiming neonics kill their bees and get as proof a diatribe by a US beekeeper based in the US..




I should be the first to congratulate you on ruining your own case..

 

[PBee]

Pokes head up s..l..o..w..l..y ......

So I take it its a touchy subject then.

The thing is its ok to suggest a link, in my opinion, where apparently 4 well fed, strong hives with a varroa load just starting to require treatment (and were being treated at the time) suddenly collapse with not a bee to be seen. Might not be the reason but no harm in suggesting it....or am I missing something?

 

[madasafish]

Pokes head up s..l..o..w..l..y ......

So I take it its a touchy subject then.

The thing is its ok to suggest a link, in my opinion, where apparently 4 well fed, strong hives with a varroa load just starting to require treatment (and were being treated at the time) suddenly collapse with not a bee to be seen. Might not be the reason but no harm in suggesting it....or am I missing something?

We have NO arable land within 5 miles of our Association apiary. Hives with heavy varroa loads have collapsed whilst being treated.. It would take a genius plus full analysis to sort out why when the weather and food availability are also key variables.


Touchy subject?

If one thinks it's reasonable to post on a single subject only - on every beekeeping forum in the UK - and blame all beekeeping problems on neonics- without any proof.. then of course it's not touchy, nor irrational nor paranoid nor boring nor off-puting nor designed to bore the pants off any rational reader.

If,on the other hand, one thinks it's unreasonable...then..

 

[Poly Hive]

About as useful as the proverbial chocolate teapot.

There always have been disappearing colonies: nothing new there. Just a fresh axe to grind.

With a bit more BEEKEEPING knowledge then there is no mystery.

PH

 

[PBee]

We have NO arable land within 5 miles of our Association apiary. Hives with heavy varroa loads have collapsed whilst being treated.. It would take a genius plus full analysis to sort out why when the weather and food availability are also key variables.


Touchy subject?

If one thinks it's reasonable to post on a single subject only - on every beekeeping forum in the UK - and blame all beekeeping problems on neonics- without any proof.. then of course it's not touchy, nor irrational nor paranoid nor boring nor off-puting nor designed to bore the pants off any rational reader.

If,on the other hand, one thinks it's unreasonable...then..

One mans' meat is another mans' poison .....so to speak...

My opinion, and its only my opinion, is that people should be let post what they want as long as its not personally insulting etc. I don't contribute to other bee fora but if you look around them the opposite is also the case with the infamous neonics debate.

Its a curious world online debating ...... all that silent keyboard tapping punctuated probably by the odd curse or nutty laugh......can it really be taken all that seriously????

 

[mbc]

NUTTER?

Lol.

 

[Karol]

I'm going to raise my head on this one and give an objective view point.

Do I believe neonics cause CCD - yes!

Do I believe varroa cause CCD - no!

Do I believe that neonics were responsible in this case - NO!

My reasoning:

My understanding of CCD is that colonies lose their mature bees leaving behind young bees and the queen. Food stores are not affected by the causative agent. (There may be secondary reasons why food stores might then disappear). The causative agent IMHO causes navigational failure where mature bees can't return and this again IMHO is a neurological problem brought on either by poisoning or by a pathogen which affects neurological competence.

These are not the symptoms described.

Does varroa cause colony collapse? I don't think so either. The reason I say that is that infestations/infections have a particular pattern which would affect queens as well as bees. Therefore the symptoms would include loss of queens as well as loss of bees, i.e. a mixed picture of weakened hives with or without queens. That is not symptomatic of CCD where the queen remains and only the mature bees are lost. If the colony as a whole absconds to escape a high varroa load, then technically the colony has not collapsed, it's relocated. In doing so would it take its own stores with it?

Again this doesn't fit the symptoms because the varroa infestion was relatively light.

I have to concur and say it would appear from the 'symptoms' to be a case of robbing by other bees (definitely not wasps) where the resident bees have joined the robbers or the smell of thymol has persuaded them to relocate.

 

[PBee]

I'm going to raise my head on this one and give an objective view point.

Do I believe neonics cause CCD - yes!

Do I believe varroa cause CCD - no!

Do I believe that neonics were responsible in this case - NO!

My reasoning:

My understanding of CCD is that colonies lose their mature bees leaving behind young bees and the queen. Food stores are not affected by the causative agent. (There may be secondary reasons why food stores might then disappear). The causative agent IMHO causes navigational failure where mature bees can't return and this again IMHO is a neurological problem brought on either by poisoning or by a pathogen which affects neurological competence.

These are not the symptoms described.

Does varroa cause colony collapse? I don't think so either. The reason I say that is that infestations/infections have a particular pattern which would affect queens as well as bees. Therefore the symptoms would include loss of queens as well as loss of bees, i.e. a mixed picture of weakened hives with or without queens. That is not symptomatic of CCD where the queen remains and only the mature bees are lost. If the colony as a whole absconds to escape a high varroa load, then technically the colony has not collapsed, it's relocated. In doing so would it take its own stores with it?

Again this doesn't fit the symptoms because the varroa infestions was relatively light.

I have to concur and say it would appear from the 'symptoms' to be a case of robbing by other bees (definitely not wasps) where the resident bees have joined the robbers or the smell of thymol has persuaded them to relocate.

Fair enough on the neonics - but the robbing scenario I find hard to believe. The OP a beekeeper of 50yrs said the hives were strong and I have yet to see a strong hive being overwhelmed by robbers. If thymol was a factor would it not have to be a very high dose ?. I use apiguard and it may cause them to beard a bit but have not experienced/heard of absconding.

 

[Hivemaker.]

I use apiguard and it may cause them to beard a bit but have not experienced/heard of absconding.

I don't use apiguard,but do use a thymol treatment with a bit less thymol in than apiguard, and used around 15,000 doses over the years to date, but never had any problems with any of my bees absconding due to this treatment yet. But i have read of it supposedly happening....... on here of course.

 

[Karol]

Fair enough on the neonics - but the robbing scenario I find hard to believe. The OP a beekeeper of 50yrs said the hives were strong and I have yet to see a strong hive being overwhelmed by robbers. If thymol was a factor would it not have to be a very high dose ?. I use apiguard and it may cause them to beard a bit but have not experienced/heard of absconding.

OK, let's ask the question a different way. With no evidence of trauma, the symptoms point to the bees absconding. Why would bees abscond leaving no stores of food and no evidence of fatalities?

Starvation?

Swarming?

Robbing?

Retreat from perceived hazard?

There is an assumption that the correct dose of thymol was used. Thymol being a hygroscopic phenol derivative breaks down if not stored properly in air tight containers protected from light and extremes of temperature. Had the applied thymol broken down into nasty repellant agents which would be uncharacteristic of routine (non-degraded) thymol use causing the bees to up sticks and leave?

 

[PBee]

OK, let's ask the question a different way. With no evidence of trauma, the symptoms point to the bees absconding. Why would bees abscond leaving no stores of food and no evidence of fatalities?

Starvation?

Swarming?

Robbing?

Retreat from perceived hazard?

There is an assumption that the correct dose of thymol was used. Thymol being a hygroscopic phenol derivative breaks down if not stored properly in air tight containers protected from light and extremes of temperature. Had the applied thymol broken down into nasty repellant agents which would be uncharacteristic of routine (non-degraded) thymol use causing the bees to up sticks and leave?

You've exited my (limited) sphere of knowledge I'm afraid. I have never experienced this kind of multi colony loss and have experienced all the common beekeeping stuff - robbing,varroa,swarming, the odd starvation case, treatments etc. so to me it seems unusual given the description of the state of the colonies.
No arable land round here though -there are benefits to living in the badlands.

 

[DanBee]

OK, let's ask the question a different way. With no evidence of trauma, the symptoms point to the bees absconding. Why would bees abscond leaving no stores of food and no evidence of fatalities?

Because they have neither queen nor brood to give them cohesion? The absence of stores is what happens when they are left unguarded.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Because they have neither queen nor brood to give them cohesion? The absence of stores is what happens when they are left unguarded.

A good answer, i agree.

 

[Karol]

Because they have neither queen nor brood to give them cohesion? The absence of stores is what happens when they are left unguarded.

I buy that, i.e. secondary loss of stores left unguarded.

Do I also buy into loss of cohesion? Why would that explain all the bees leaving in this instance whereas from what I've read from this forum, colonies don't automatically disappear when they become queenless?

OK, the next question then is what happened to the queen and brood that they were lost leading to loss of cohesion?

Personally I don't believe it could be neonics or any other pesticide because the 'map' is wrong in terms of translocation within the hive.

So what else could it be that leaves no evidence of trauma?

 

[PBee]

Because they have neither queen nor brood to give them cohesion? The absence of stores is what happens when they are left unguarded.

As a general rule ok but in this case 21st August BIAS, no queen cells, strong hives as per OP. Assuming the 4 hives swarmed at the end of August why would they abscond with virgins in the hive after 4/5 weeks?. I had 35 nucs that were late getting mated (early September) with the weather - none of them decided to abscond.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Assuming the 4 hives swarmed at the end of August why would they abscond with virgins in the hive after 4/5 weeks?

Perhaps they never had virgins at the time, they could of got eaten on mating flights or otherwise of perished.

 

[Andy Duff]

Indeed and the less nonsense about the "N" the better.

PH

But on a serious note PH perhaps the conclusion should be that the hives were located too far from a ley line to stop Martians from beenapping them.

 

[PBee]

Perhaps they never had virgins at the time, they could of got eaten on mating flights or otherwise of perished.

Would be fairly bad luck to lose 4. What percentage losses do you encounter over a year?