Disapearing Bees

[Hivemaker.]

Would be fairly bad luck to lose 4. What percentage losses do you encounter over a year?

I agree it would be very unusual to have this many for the op,well in a normal year anyway,perhaps not so after this season just gone though. Not very often in my case,and none,not even in this season, apart from some mini mating nucs,but i do make sure they are Q- on a regular basis,and no virgins left in big colonys.

But of course during the end of the season the queen often goes off lay..usually while on the heather around here,and then using a thymol treatment with too sudden a reduction in entrance size can cause some bees to ball the queen,again not often,but it happens...leaving them hoplessely Q-

 

[Stromnessbees]

effects of neonics

My understanding of CCD is that colonies lose their mature bees leaving behind young bees and the queen. Food stores are not affected by the causative agent. (There may be secondary reasons why food stores might then disappear). The causative agent IMHO causes navigational failure where mature bees can't return and this again IMHO is a neurological problem brought on either by poisoning or by a pathogen which affects neurological competence.

Hi Karol

I agree with you that the case described doesn't look like a typical case of CCD. On the other hand I think your description of the effects of neonics is too narrow.

Yes, there are neurological effects in acute cases, when bees ingest high doses and can't navigate home. In this case lots of flying bees would be lost at the time of poisoning.

But if the dose is very small the disorientation does not happen, instead the contaminated food is taken home into the colony, where it is used to rear the next generation whose development will then be compromised resulting in bees not fit for purpose.

How can we now explain the dramatic dwindling of the hives in autumn? -

By October the summer bees are done and die off. The next generation is supposed to take over, but these bees are the underdeveloped generation and cannot take over, they are sick and leave the hive to die.

The delayed effect of neonics is intriguing, but it has been shown in the "Harvard Study" that when given very small doses that showed no immediate effects, the affected colonies started to die 3 months after the end of the exposure to the toxin.

http://vimeo.com/39942890

 

[DanBee]

How can we now explain the dramatic dwindling of the hives in autumn?

Hmm, I know how you would like to explain it

But these are my observations of the year:

Warm winter, cold wet spring, cold wet summer.

Queen raising very reluctant and intermittent - colonies unwilling to draw drone comb even when given starter strips, queens on-and-off lay, swarm cells torn down, rebuilt, as colonies wait for a break in the weather. Mating windows few and far between.

Difficult to spot the difference between late summer queenlessness and normal off-lay, particularly when protracted like this year.

Colonies will supercede late in year (see: warm winter) if they are unhappy with their queen; often these are poor quality queens - good enough to get them to spring, but superceded in spring/summer (see: cold wet spring, cold wet summer). Problems of one year can manifest in the following year.

Confinement and congestion (see: cold wet spring, cold wet summer) hasten the spread of pathogens, resulting in upsurge of minor disease.

Colonies facing starvation in the summer, others subsisting rather than thriving. Crucially, a lot of colonies appeared to be borderline with pollen stores across the summer; few beekeepers feed pollen substitute.

Orchard crops very poor due to rain across pollination windows. OSR a wash-out locally due to only 7-8 days of decent weather whilst flowering. Even himalayan balsam has not given a flow this year. We have a plum tree that is in full flower now.

I know, I know, I've got my head stuck in the sand and am grasping at straws

 

[Karol]

Hi Karol

I agree with you that the case described doesn't look like a typical case of CCD. On the other hand I think your description of the effects of neonics is too narrow.

Yes, there are neurological effects in acute cases, when bees ingest high doses and can't navigate home. In this case lots of flying bees would be lost at the time of poisoning.

But if the dose is very small the disorientation does not happen, instead the contaminated food is taken home into the colony, where it is used to rear the next generation whose development will then be compromised resulting in bees not fit for purpose.

How can we now explain the dramatic dwindling of the hives in autumn? -

By October the summer bees are done and die off. The next generation is supposed to take over, but these bees are the underdeveloped generation and cannot take over, they are sick and leave the hive to die.

The delayed effect of neonics is intriguing, but it has been shown in the "Harvard Study" that when given very small doses that showed no immediate effects, the affected colonies started to die 3 months after the end of the exposure to the toxin.

http://vimeo.com/39942890

I have already made my position clear that I believe neonics must be banned and therefore I do not defend them. I based that on an objective review of the evidence. That does not however mean that I associate every adverse event with neonics and to do so is detrimental to the understanding and comprehension of other pathologies.

I don't disagree that neonics may be responsible for delayed collapse caused through mutagenic effects on emerging brood. However, even that 'map' doesn't fit the symptoms. It does not explain why a strong colony lost all of its castes in one go with no evidence of trauma. (The proposed neonic delayed poisoning map would expect to see remnant bees simply because of the natural distribution curve seen in EC50 effects.) Besides which, there are accounts of such things occuring prior to the invention of neonics.

It seems to me that what is important is to understand whether this is a 'natural' event precipitated by the colony in the absence of any pathological agent (i.e. the bees just got tired of their surroundings and wanted a change - perhaps driven by competition or overcrowding in relation to perceived resources) or whether there is a causative pathological factor. If it's the latter then maybe something can be done about it. If it's the former then as they say - that's life.

And PS - I repeat that notwithstanding the above I would urge a ban on neonics.

 

[Into the lions den]

Would be fairly bad luck to lose 4. What percentage losses do you encounter over a year?

Every year is different, every location is different, OP is in Worcestershire, not far from where we TRIED to mate queens in Hereford area this summer. A 25 to 50% failure rate was common. For a brief while we thought it better, but quite a number apparently mated, went off laying strongly, only to fail in August and September.

All caused by the weather.

If his bees were poisoned by something slow burning and as catastrophically toxic as to cause complete loss of strong colonies virtually overnight, or in a few days at most, in apiaries with loads of the suspect OSR to work 4 to 5 months previously, why so FEW colonies dead. You poison an apiary then the lot will be suffering, not just a minority.

As Dan posted............queenless colonies lose cohesion.............and lots of swarmed/casted colonies this year that never got the younq Q mated and laying. In these cases the end can come very fast.

There is going to be a very high loss rate in many parts of the UK this winter. I had a long conversation with a major beekeeper in Dumfries and Galloway last night, who has no exposure whatsoever to neonics as he does not go to OSR, and he is finding a significant proportion of completely empty hives already, over 10%, and a high proportion of very small. His hives all had significant bees in them a month ago. He has good varroa control, is a top notch beekeeper, and, as is the case all over many parts of the UK, his queens were really slow to mate this season, and non matings and poor matings abound.

We are finding about 10% total duds among the hives coming back from the heather. They had enough bees whilst being stripped not to be written off.......two weeks later empty or nearly empty......just a fact of life in this, a most difficult season.

What the OP reports is not so terribly unusual *in the context of 2012*. Many similar reports will follow. Neonics it aint.

 

[Poly Hive]

Post 54 has it, finally.

Queenless, and broodless and thus hopeless they depart for other homes to survive. the strongest drive of all.

Stores left undefended and are robbed out in less than a day, leaving the empty puzzle for the beekeeper.

Mystery none. Bernard described it during his Expert weekends.

PH

 

[oliver90owner]

Post 54 has it, finally.

Don't think so. About 52 posts previous was very succinct and to the point. That'll be post #2 in the thread.

Not all 64 further wasted posts, as a fair amount of discussion among a few throwaways, but nevertheless answered at post #2, not 'finally' at #54.

 

[Poly Hive]

Not quite the same Rab.

PH

 

[Karol]

Post 54 has it, finally.

Queenless, and broodless and thus hopeless they depart for other homes to survive. the strongest drive of all.

Stores left undefended and are robbed out in less than a day, leaving the empty puzzle for the beekeeper.

Mystery none. Bernard described it during his Expert weekends.

PH

CCD..........?

Colony Consolidation Drive

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Hi Karol

doesn't look like a typical case of CCD.

As CCD seems to be an American phenomenon what is 'typical' in this country

 

[PBee]

If his bees were poisoned by something slow burning and as catastrophically toxic as to cause complete loss of strong colonies virtually overnight, or in a few days at most, in apiaries with loads of the suspect OSR to work 4 to 5 months previously, why so FEW colonies dead. You poison an apiary then the lot will be suffering, not just a minority.

As Dan posted............queenless colonies lose cohesion.............and lots of swarmed/casted colonies this year that never got the younq Q mated and laying. In these cases the end can come very fast.

The first part is the best argument against any form of poisoning.

The bit that dosen't sit right with me is that, assuming correct description of the state of the colonies, they were strong, queenright with brood including eggs and were taking down food well to-wards the end of August.

 

[Taylan]

I would like to thank everyone for your interest and replies, But having all three of my apiaries surrounded by rape I don't think it was poisoning from spraying far more would have been affected, I think Mikes theory of the thymol being the last straw causing the unmated queens to Bugger off especially as I look back with hind sight to the last swarm on the 27th Aug at the first apiary where we had the first loss. And Hivemaker suggestion of robbing it makes the most sense. it has been a difficult season but interesting I cannot remember one like it still it gives us something to talk about.

 

[DanBee]

it has been a difficult season but interesting I cannot remember one like it still it gives us something to talk about.

 

[Karol]

As CCD seems to be an American phenomenon what is 'typical' in this country

I think that's a little disingenuous. I can imagine that climate has a big bearing on CCD for different reasons not least for example competing water sources vs guttation, type of crops and different rates of expression in different nectar/pollen etc not to mention different practices in crop rotation and spraying regimes. I don't doubt that there are cases of CCD in Europe (including the UK) and I don't doubt that a number of those will have been caused by neonics. It would appear that beeks have a problem identifying CCD which is a completely different thing to asking 'what's typical in this country?'.

Just as it is folly to blame neonics for everything so it is folly to absolve them of everything. The tapestry is a mixed picture and it's easy not to see the wood for the trees.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I think that's a little disingenuous. I can imagine that climate has a big bearing on CCD for different reasons not least for example competing water sources vs guttation, type of crops and different rates of expression in different nectar/pollen etc not to mention different practices in crop rotation and spraying regimes. I don't doubt that there are cases of CCD in Europe (including the UK) and I don't doubt that a number of those will have been caused by neonics. It would appear that beeks have a problem identifying CCD which is a completely different thing to asking 'what's typical in this country?'.

Just as it is folly to blame neonics for everything so it is folly to absolve them of everything. The tapestry is a mixed picture and it's easy not to see the wood for the trees.

Yes - but let's be realistic - there is a big difference between a colony collapsing and the big bogey of 'Colony collapse disorder' which seems to be an excuse the americans use to explain away their questionable exploitation of the bee.
As for being disingenuous - certainly not - it's a frank and honest belief, I don't know how that statement can be construed as insincere

 

[Haughton Honey]

Just to add a little meat to what ITLD mentioned earlier, I've just returned from two weeks in the Greek islands meeting fellow beekeeping friends along the way (well, someone's got to!).

I inspected three of my apiaries earlier this week - I keep eight full colonies in each apiary - and out of the 24 Buckfast-headed colonies 10 of them were either positively weak or on the small side, having been brimming, strong colonies when I left. All varroa treatment had been completed before I left.

This winter will surely test some of us, but there is little one can do now apart from ensure that colonies are well-fed and bedded down for the next five months.

Interestingly, most of my Greek 'beek' contacts had also had a lousy season too - but due to excessive heat from late spring onwards. In the main, they reckon that they had harvested somewhere near 30-35% of what they would expect in an average year.

 

[Karol]

Yes - but let's be realistic - there is a big difference between a colony collapsing and the big bogey of 'Colony collapse disorder' which seems to be an excuse the americans use to explain away their questionable exploitation of the bee.
As for being disingenuous - certainly not - it's a frank and honest belief, I don't know how that statement can be construed as insincere

I didn't question your sincerity or belief. I said it was a little disingenuous to surmise that CCD isn't 'typical' in both countries. Can you prove that CCD doesn't happen in the UK and that when it does it doesn't exhibit the same 'symptoms' as those described in the US?

CCD as I understand it results 'typically' with a catastrophically weakened colony with the queen and a small remnant of young bees. Anything else isn't CCD.

That's not to say that colonies can't collapse in other ways whatever the causative agent and it is entirely feasible for a combination of effects to occur, i.e. it is entirely feasible for there to be a background of neonic poisoning complicated by poor queen mating. What you don't know and can't say is whether sub lethal dosing of neonics is in any way responsible for poor mating performance which could quite easily explain why mating performance was poor this year. Bear in mind that 'mating' is a complex co-ordinated activity which could quite easily be affected through a neurological toxin.

 

[madasafish]

Poor mating performance can partially be explained by people who practise drone killing as part of IPM..

 

[Into the lions den]

Can you prove that CCD doesn't happen in the UK and that when it does it doesn't exhibit the same 'symptoms' as those described in the US?

Oh come on. You are talking in the main to beekeepers here, not scientists who can respond to your requests for proof in the manner you wish. We rely on others to do that stuff for us. Your posts full of blinding scientific terms are generally beyond most of us to argue with, and thus you get a free run because our knowledge of scientific method and complex biochemistry is inadequate to be able to argue with you. You can blind us with science then cosh us over the head with beliefs if you wish. Many of us will be none the wiser. People have been looking for CCD in Europe, all over Europe. Its a serious stretch to consider this as if it was a conspiracy to cover up CCD. They have not found it. I respect and accept that. If you look hard enough you can imagine grassy knolls behind every tree and see neonics peeking out of assorted repository windows. Dont make it true.

Bear in mind that 'mating' is a complex co-ordinated activity which could quite easily be affected through a neurological toxin.

Why do you even want to raise that ghost? Its weather. It has happened before neonics, during neonics, and will happen after neonics. It was an outcome entirely predictable purely based on the weather patterns and timings. No need to introduce the bogeyman of choice to explain it. Perfectly good mating seasons happen when the weather is correct, again before and during the neonic years, and will continue after neonics have been superceded and gone to the pesticide old folks home.

..

 

[mbc]

Poor mating performance can partially be explained by people who practise drone killing as part of IPM..

Possibly, but I would imagine loosing a few thousand chaps from biotechnical ipm is as nothing in real world effects compared to poor foraging leading up to, and during the larval stage of the drones.
Poor diet = low sperm counts