Daft Langstroth Proportions

[bjosephd]

So this year I purchased some alternative Langstroth boxes for sensible beekeeping (nuc boxes) and curiosity (an 8 frame box).

BUT...

Why the hell are the proportions so inconsistent!?

A 10 frame box fits 10 frames with 22mm remaining.

An 8 frame box fits 8 frames with 35mm remaining.

A 5 frame nuc fits 5 frames with 30mm remaining.

The remaining 35mm on the 8 frame is actually the width of a frame so you could make it 9 frame but you'd have to use a mallet to hammer it in! And then becomes impossible once there is propolis involved. So NOT an option.

Why aren't they all X no. of frames + 15mm or something consistent?

Once I've put my dummy board in I want my boxes pretty rattle free. But I don't want 3 sizes of dummy board.

Weird.


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[B+.]

Once I've put my dummy board in I want my boxes pretty rattle free. But I don't want 3 sizes of dummy board.

Weird.

Good point.
The only defence I can suggest for such variation is that you might want to wedge some paper (or something similar) in the gap to hold the frames in place whilst moving the hive.

 

[bjosephd]

Indeed. It's not the end of the world but the thought of this disparity makes me feel somewhat OCD.

And as a beekeeper, if OCD is not a prerequisite... it certainly soon develops!


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[Erichalfbee]

You don't need three sizes of dummy board. Once you push that dummy tight up against the end frame the bees ignore the space between it and the wall of the hive
Infact I quite like a decent space so that I can pull that dummy back before I take it out

 

[bjosephd]

You don't need three sizes of dummy board. Once you push that dummy tight up against the end frame the bees ignore the space between it and the wall of the hive
Infact I quite like a decent space so that I can pull that dummy back before I take it out

Indeed... I'm aware of this... and I too like a bit of space in the box to work...

But whyyyyy is it so inconsistent? Who decided on these odd seemingly unrelated sizes?

OR were they maybe designed around frames that were marginally wider or narrower that would leave a consistent 'dummy space'?

(Or the frames designed better to fit in the past.)

These frames are 35mm across the end bars.


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[Erichalfbee]

If you think that's daft take a look at the table here
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/lang.html

 

[linoleum bonypart]

Ridiculous !!

 

[bjosephd]

"Notes... Hoffman spacing is 35 mm except Greece which is 36 mm and New Zealand which is 33 mm (older NZ was 33.4 mm) and Mexico was/is 33 mm. Some deep frames made by APEX were 37 mm wide and some shallow frames made by APEX were 38 mm wide"

Goodness me!

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[kevrhcfag]

Good point.
The only defence I can suggest for such variation is that you might want to wedge some paper (or something similar) in the gap to hold the frames in place whilst moving the hive.

You supposed to use the matchsticks after finishing ventilating the hive with them, if not finished buy another box.

 

[B+.]

But whyyyyy is it so inconsistent? Who decided on these odd seemingly unrelated sizes?

OR were they maybe designed around frames that were marginally wider or narrower that would leave a consistent 'dummy space'?

(Or the frames designed better to fit in the past.)

These frames are 35mm across the end bars.

If you assume that the frame width has been constant (and I don't for one minute believe this is the case), could it be the thickness of the box that has changed? Some of my polyhives are about 2" thick yet I still put 10 frames in them. My wooden boxes are only about 3/4" thick. It makes for an odd looking stack when they're piled ontop of each other.

 

[B+.]

You supposed to use the matchsticks

Its hard to tell if that was sarcasm kevrhcfag ;-)
I thought we'd managed to get through the winter without a matchstick war

 

[bjosephd]

Its hard to tell if that was sarcasm kevrhcfag ;-)
I thought we'd managed to get through the winter without a matchstick war

Is the matchstick war a cold war?

Or a drafty one?


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[For want of a better word]

Glad I burned the Langstroths and stuck with Nationals... at least made to a BRITISH standard!

Whatever happened to the Union flag!!

Nos da

 

[Finman]

Glad I burned the Langstroths and stuck with Nationals... at least made to a BRITISH standard!


Nos da

The British love to burn hives. (mostly not own ones)

 

[SDM]

If you think that's daft take a look at the table here
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/lang.html

I'm sure I read somewhere that there are 92 accepted langstroth variations.

 

[SDM]

The British love to burn hives. (mostly not own ones)

Only if they contain non native bees.

 

[Quis Custodiet]

Only if they contain non native bees.

What type of bees do you keep these days Stucat?

 

[Fusion_power]

Mann Lake 8 frame boxes are wider than the 8 frame boxes made by others. Their stated reason is so that a frame feeder can be installed.

I made my square Dadant hives and frames with carefully considered dimensions to avoid this wasted space paradigm. Each frame is cut with end bars exactly 32 mm so that 14 frames fit in each box with 17 mm remaining. With judicious management, there is enough space to insert a vertical divider so I can run two 7 frame nucs in each box.

 

[Into the lions den]

British standard?? Whats that? You have varying frame widths here too, and some of the flimsiest frames in the world. (Thin neck area and tiny little bottom bars.)

Our old Smith unit was always on the older wide spacing of 1.5"...but gave issues when mixed with the 1.375" more common today.

You NEED half a frame or so of spare space in a box when the frames are new as they can take up a good bit more when there is wax and propolis on the shoulders. Also if they get damp for whatever reason they can get very tight. We just leave any extra space equally divided between the two outside spaces and NEVER us dummy boards.

The NZ situation is a bit different. If you look up Kaikoura Prime Pine's website (used to be Smiths, a long standing maker over there) you can see they offer two sizes of frame and two sizes of boxes (for each size!). This is because the traditional NZ Langstroth variers a little from international standard (the box is slightly narrower and shallower, and the frames a little shallower too (by 2mm).

The other, slightly larger, sizes are for their export market.

There is a historical reason for it that should appeal to the good old British instinct to scavenge. The end panels of kerosene boxes (it used to come two square cans in one wooden crate back in the days when standards were being set) were very close to the size for a Langstroth front or back. So they saved all those for the beehives and then adapted the frames ever so slightly to make them fit. Then they kept those sizes as the local standard. Hence the sizes out there are just a tad off from other places. I understand it can be the same in Australia.

Dave Cushman was a lovely guy, and his site records all sorts of historic data about such things, some of them that you might think give a huge spread of sizing were actually someones bright idea and are in truth a real rarity.

Where you can come up against some more significant inconveniences is how high the frames sit in the box. The lugs of international standard Langstroths are thicker and stronger than UK lugs, so the frames sit a fraction higher than UK ones and beespaces can be corrupted leading to cussing when separating boxes.

British variations can be just as bad. I bought a load of nationals quite some years ago and the sizing was so variable! Some of the brood boxes were of size that a super on top could not cover the little check holes where the inner front wall met the sides and had to be plugged every time for hive shifting, a real PITA. I flogged them off cheap.

 

[Hivemaker.]

British variations can be just as bad. I bought a load of nationals quite some years ago and the sizing was so variable!

The correct dimensions are in the link below....

https://www.scottishbeekeepers.org.uk/images/education/techdatasheets/TDS number 4 national hive.pdf