Cross bees

[alancooper]

Last season, following increase, one of my colonies was very cross, you might say “bees from hell”. They reacted quickly to hive inspection, stinging and chasing with ferocity. I realised that this trait (?) was very different from the occasional crossness from botched inspection, post-flow moodiness (?), etc., etc., that is usual for beeks.
I will, of course requeen. But: the colony thrived over the summer - much honey yield and exceptionally low varroa.
Are their other anecdotes from forum members that might have the same association between crossness and high yield/low varroa? Or are there just as many anecdotes to the contrary, that yield/low varroa are no different from non-cross bees?
Maybe this is Pandora box that should remain closed?
Alan.

 

[Mabee]

Not had to deal with such bees, but my calmest hive also produced the most honey and virtually no varroa drop. I aim to breed from this hive this year. This particular colony is in my garden and were busy out doing their thing today, I was working over a low fence in front of the hive (2m from entrance) and not one bothered me at all. So, I'd definitely requeen if I had a hive like yours, I don't think those traits have to go hand in hand.

 

[Antipodes]

Last season, following increase, one of my colonies was very cross, you might say “bees from hell”. They reacted quickly to hive inspection, stinging and chasing with ferocity. I realised that this trait (?) was very different from the occasional crossness from botched inspection, post-flow moodiness (?), etc., etc., that is usual for beeks.
I will, of course requeen. But: the colony thrived over the summer - much honey yield and exceptionally low varroa.
Are their other anecdotes from forum members that might have the same association between crossness and high yield/low varroa? Or are there just as many anecdotes to the contrary, that yield/low varroa are no different from non-cross bees?
Maybe this is Pandora box that should remain closed?
Alan.

Big colonies seem to be able to collect more surplus honey. 45-50000 plus colonies. Those bigger colonies also seem to have more defensive bees at their disposal, so that may have a bearing on what we see/witness.

 

[elainemary]

Last season, following increase, one of my colonies was very cross, you might say “bees from hell”. They reacted quickly to hive inspection, stinging and chasing with ferocity. I realised that this trait (?) was very different from the occasional crossness from botched inspection, post-flow moodiness (?), etc., etc., that is usual for beeks.
I will, of course requeen. But: the colony thrived over the summer - much honey yield and exceptionally low varroa.
Are their other anecdotes from forum members that might have the same association between crossness and high yield/low varroa? Or are there just as many anecdotes to the contrary, that yield/low varroa are no different from non-cross bees?
Maybe this is Pandora box that should remain closed?
Alan.

From what I’ve read I don’t think temper is linked genetically to varroa resistance. Resistance to varroa is down to 3 unlinked recessive gene pairs - one for uncapping, one for throwing out the dead (more so than normal undertakers) and one clearing out affected larva. As the genes for these traits are recessive it’s very difficult to retain the genetics which is why bees developed for resistance don’t keep it - as soon as the next virgin queen mates with a drone with the more common dominant gene (non varroa resistance gene), the characteristic is lost in the next generation. Unfortunately many beekeepers think their bees are special and varroa resistant but if it was that easy we would have cracked it. I can see how aggressive bees might be even more angry though if they have a high varroa load! Having said that it’s a good thing to select for bees that have lower varroa loads providing their other traits are desirable too.

I also wonder if cross colonies could make more honey as the beekeeper is more cautious about going into the colony so they get disturbed less and get on with the job of collecting honey. I haven’t seen any scientific evidence that temper and foraging ability are linked genetically, probably governed by different genes and how frugal the bees are. The foraging site itself will have a big part to play in the amount of nectar collected and the size of the colony, as others have said

 

[Erichalfbee]

Last season, following increase, one of my colonies was very cross, you might say “bees from hell”. They reacted quickly to hive inspection, stinging and chasing with ferocity. I realised that this trait (?) was very different from the occasional crossness from botched inspection, post-flow moodiness (?), etc., etc., that is usual for beeks.
I will, of course requeen. But: the colony thrived over the summer - much honey yield and exceptionally low varroa.
Are their other anecdotes from forum members that might have the same association between crossness and high yield/low varroa? Or are there just as many anecdotes to the contrary, that yield/low varroa are no different from non-cross bees?
Maybe this is Pandora box that should remain closed?
Alan.

Maybe because you left them alone? I have one similar...at the end of the row and up for requeening.

 

[Arfermo]

I could do with a couple of docile and productive queens. Offers/recommendations please.

 

[enrico]

If I get a colony like that I choose a good hive for them to combine with. I then spend the winter gently moving the good hive towards the bad one so that in spring they are next to each other. On my first inspection on the hive from hell I will kill the rogue queen and immediately combine the hives together by putting the good hive with the good queen over the old one. Why do I do this?because if you wait until good queen's are available you are well into the season, finding the rogue queen is more difficult because the hive is bigger and by then they will be stroppy again. On the first inspection of the year I generally find that all hives are quiet and that is my one opportunity of finding the queen with some ease and dispatching her. I might get a second or even a third chance before the hive builds up if she is not found on the first occasion. A hive from hell, and I mean a real hive from hell, is a nightmare. The sooner you sort them in the season the better in my opinion! Good luck and let us know how it goes. Mine is all set up for my first inspection!

 

[Ian123]

I could do with a couple of docile and productive queens. Offers/recommendations please.

For speed and making things easy I’d try a couple of the BS Honey buckfasts. Available early and very nice to handle, be aware they will build big colonies.

 

[philipm]

I was told some years ago that one of the reasons nasty bees have more honey is that they tend to be the ones that are robbing the more placid colonies don't know if that is true or not.

 

[Bazzer]

From what I’ve read I don’t think temper is linked genetically to varroa resistance. Resistance to varroa is down to 3 unlinked recessive gene pairs - one for uncapping, one for throwing out the dead (more so than normal undertakers) and one clearing out affected larva. As the genes for these traits are recessive it’s very difficult to retain the genetics which is why bees developed for resistance don’t keep it - as soon as the next virgin queen mates with a drone with the more common dominant gene (non varroa resistance gene), the characteristic is lost in the next generation. Unfortunately many beekeepers think their bees are special and varroa resistant but if it was that easy we would have cracked it. I can see how aggressive bees might be even more angry though if they have a high varroa load! Having said that it’s a good thing to select for bees that have lower varroa loads providing their other traits are desirable too.

I also wonder if cross colonies could make more honey as the beekeeper is more cautious about going into the colony so they get disturbed less and get on with the job of collecting honey. I haven’t seen any scientific evidence that temper and foraging ability are linked genetically, probably governed by different genes and how frugal the bees are. The foraging site itself will have a big part to play in the amount of nectar collected and the size of the colony, as others have said

Of course a queen mates with 10-15 drones and probably only needs to mate with one or two which have the various recessive genes for there to be sufficient specialist workers to lower varroa. Hence, if one luckily obtains a resistant colony the best strategy is probably to use it to produce queens that are then used as drone breeders.

 

[Finman]

You believe that suddenly you get one resistant hive in the middle of apiary.

It is usual that the biggest hives die by varroa, because their varroa load is big, and then mites go into the last winter brood. The brood die the summer bees die and the hive is empty befote winter.

This is very usual story, CCD

 

[Finman]

I was told some years ago that one of the reasons nasty bees have more honey is that they tend to be the ones that are robbing the more placid colonies don't know if that is true or not.

I have heard that 50 years ago. Then yields were 20-40 kg. Now yields are 60 -150 kg and hives are calm and 3 times bigger

A good yield depends on pastures, does oasture has nectar enough up to evening. And the colony must be huge that it can store all nectar what it collected from nature on good days. Nectar needs 3 times more room than capped honey. 9 langstroth boxes is a good forager. 9 boxes angry bees is a big trouble, even if it brongs 150 kg honey.

Normal size hive is soon filled with nectar and it must slow down the busy work. You can see how hives make beard when they cannot work any more. Water evaporates from nectar and it keeps hive cool and bees can work. If area of nectar is small, the hive becomes hot.

It is easier to nurse two normal hives than one giant killer

Take daughters from giant hive and you have next summer 10 semi killer hives.

 

[Bazzer]

You believe that suddenly you get one resistant hive in the middle of apiary.

It is usual that the biggest hives die by varroa, because their varroa load is big, and then mites go into the last winter brood. The brood die the summer bees die and the hive is empty befote winter.

This is very usual story, CCD

More likely a distribution of resistance across an apiary although one will the best - if you only had one hive and were lucky then one year with a new queen it may show enhanced resistance. Either way I was outlining a sensible strategy to then take.

 

[Finman]

More likely a distribution of resistance across an apiary although one will the best - if you only had one hive and were lucky then one year with a new queen it may show enhanced resistance. Either way I was outlining a sensible strategy to then take.

You think that you have suddenly a resistant apiary in the middle of village? First you must have one mutant hive, which spreads the mutant gene to the whole village. Not only to your apiary. Suddenly no hives die by varroa in the village, like it happened in Bellheim forest.

Just pure dreaming....

 

[Bazzer]

You think that you have suddenly a resistant apiary in the middle of village? First you must have one mutant hive, which spreads the mutant gene to the whole village. Not only to your apiary. Suddenly no hives die by varroa in the village, like it happened in Bellheim forest.

Just pure dreaming....

Try 6 apiaries - or maybe they are just an expensive figment of my imagination.

 

[Finman]

Try 6 apiaries - or maybe they are just an expensive figment of my imagination.

That is a good idea. 6 mutations are more than one.

 

[oliver90owner]

Most anecdotes need just a little consideration to expose them as myths. If you believe everything you read, see or hear you are living in cloud cuckoo land

 

[Finman]

. If you believe everything you read, .....

Serious problem...

 

[Nannysbees]

I'm hoping the temperament of my four hives will be calm this spring, two are bought buckfast queens, were very very docile, the other two raised their own!!!!

 

[alancooper]

From what I’ve read I don’t think temper is linked genetically to varroa resistance.

I also wonder if cross colonies could make more honey as the beekeeper is more cautious about going into the colony so they get disturbed less and get on with the job of collecting honey. The foraging site itself will have a big part to play in the amount of nectar collected and the size of the colony, as others have said.

Thanks for the genetics comments - very helpful knowing that temper is not linked genetically with varroa tolerance.
The colony was managed similarly to others, but the spring build-up was slower. All colonies were on the same site.
Alan.