Cell punch method-errrrr!

[Olivia9801]

Tried several times now and still not getting any success with this technique.

How have your efforts turned out by using this technique?

Regards

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Have a look at this video from The Norfolk Honey Company- there might be something in there that offers an insight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccMK4Oe07nQ

The queen rearing group that I belong to has tried cell punching twice but without any notable success. There are so many factors in queen rearing that it's difficult to pin down exactly what has gone wrong. I doubt that the wet and windy weather we've had for the last 3 to 4 weeks has helped queen rearing.

CVB

 

[nantmoel]

You really should try grafting, its not that difficult, and it does not damage your comb.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

You really should try grafting, its not that difficult, and it does not damage your comb.

Nant

How did you get on with the Nicot system that you tried some while ago?

CVB

 

[For want of a better word]

Must be a skill level thing going on here... and prepping the colonies!

Using VERY strong ( Double brood) queen right colonies for rearing I have had some good results with cell punching.... ditched the short punches and made some myself a little bit longer than the Stanley Cell Punches as described in the BIBBA publication by Richard Smailes ( Now being edited and brought up to date by Roger Patterson as a new publication for BIBBA members).
The drawn foundation must be fresh, and as with grafting the larvae must be less than 3+ to 4 days old ( Smailes says 2 1/2 days. I experimented with a Thornes Drone Trap, excluding the queen for a week and then trapping for one day to lay and then releasing and excluding again... much as with the Jenter / Nicot system.

Success was 10 queen cells drawn down ( only one cell punch frame! into q+ queen raiser colony. The queen right cell raiser colony MUST be well provisioned with pollen in the frame AND well fed ( I used an Asforth feeder and kept topped up with 60 % sugar) and before commencing putting the cell punches in must have new brood moved either side of the cell punch frame.

I also had success with the more commonly available Morgan Williams Cell punch some years back... but some one has purloined that punch, and it did make a terrible mess of the foundation!
Down side with queen improvement and rearing is that you will of necessity have to have obliterated a couple or three or more colonies from honey production.

Needs to be said the Cornish Amm are very much more difficult to breed than the non native subtypes... where I honed my skills!

I would never call myself a Master Beekeeper... perhaps a lucky one?

Yeghes da

 

[For want of a better word]

Have a look at this video from The Norfolk Honey Company- there might be something in there that offers an insight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccMK4Oe07nQ

The queen rearing group that I belong to has tried cell punching twice but without any notable success. There are so many factors in queen rearing that it's difficult to pin down exactly what has gone wrong. I doubt that the wet and windy weather we've had for the last 3 to 4 weeks has helped queen rearing.

CVB

Critisism of the video..... please take with a pinch of salt as I am not an expert!

Firstly colony was by far away too small.. even on a Commercial box!
Secondly it was queenless... I have never had any success with this method, preferring a double or even double + 1/2 on National format.*

*I use a queenright system... using the green Maisemore plastic queen excluder. I have tried queenless "starter " method but seems not to work for me. I have had no sucess using the Cloake board method over the past three seasons... which seems to be a halfway house!
The cell punches appeared to be too short, however if the protruding cell was cut down at a 62.5 degree slope to the bit of plastic, that may have given a result. Mr Smailes suggests taking a razor blade to the protruding cell and trimming straight across....
However Imagine an emergency cell, usually the bees cut away two or three cells below it to allow the queen cell to develop... I trim away any excess.

Thirdly the timing seemed a bit slapdash... the queen cells need to be in the incubator or into the well provisioned and stocked queen raising Apidea on day fourteen... or at least caged with a hair roller if left in the colony to hatch.
BIBBA have a queen rearing schedule that is tried and tested... a free download!

Yes grafting is easier.... but at my age my eyes are not up to it!

Yeghes da

E&O excluded
All characters are fictional and do not represent anyone dead or alive

 

[B+.]

Firstly colony was by far away too small.. even on a Commercial box!
Secondly it was queenless... I have never had any success with this method, preferring a double or even double + 1/2 on National format.*

*I use a queenright system... using the green Maisemore plastic queen excluder. I have tried queenless "starter " method but seems not to work for me.

Yes grafting is easier.... but at my age my eyes are not up to it!

We could talk about queen rearing forever. Michael Palmer says it all in his NHS presentation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7tinVIuBJ8) though. Personally, I prefer very strong queenless cell raisers (https://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3745). The only thing I do slightly differently is that I don't transfer the started cells to a finisher. To my mind, it seems incongruent to move them out of a colony where they get undivided attention to one where they have to share the available brood food with worker larvae. Yes, I know it's more economic and a commercial queen rearer might do things differently, but, I want the best queens I can possibly get so I'm prepared to dedicate a colony to get them.
As for cell punches, I have never used one so can't comment. I would have thought cutting cell strips (https://youtu.be/kyzAS5eZ2xA?t=6m45s) was simpler? Perhaps, one day I'll have to try it if my eyesight deteriorates. Currently, I just graft using a visor with appropriate magnification.

 

[For want of a better word]

Interesting.... I suppose it could be a problem that depends upon how long the queen has not been present for... as in the Video it seems that if there are "viable" larvae still in the brood frames then the bees may put their efforts into them in preference to the ones presented in the cell punches???
On queen minus systems the authors always stress to go through the colony after a few days and knock down any queen cells that have been started?

Seemed to be a lot of "novice mistakes" in that video... lessons to be learnt... problems to be addressed... to better understand....but then I am not ,like the vast majority, a Master Beekeeper!!!

Yeghes da

 

[madasafish]

Tried cell punching (to get a clean cut heat the punch first in HOT water - a move missed out by many) but my eyes are not very good so variable results.
Nicot and a Cloake Board uses only one colony for queen starting raising but there is a calendar which needs to be kept. BUT if you have the time, it is foolproof I find.. Even I have raised over 15 queens this year with it - far in excess of my needs and given good queens away..
http://www.thebeeyard.org/rearing-queens-via-the-cloake-board-method/

My Cloake Board colony is now huge - 2 Lang jumbos...and is going to be broken down when the next lot are completed- (I hope the weather is good enough for mating -lots of drones still)

If I can do it anyone can...

 

[nantmoel]

Nant

How did you get on with the Nicot system that you tried some while ago?

CVB

It worked well last year, however my first attempt this season the bees removed all the eggs! This why I moved on to grafting, and to be honest I have found this a very simple method, I never did like caging the queen.

 

[Poly Hive]

In my experience Icanhoppit.. the larvae best recieved are less than 24 hours old. I think that for you is important.

PH

 

[charlievictorbravo]

In my experience Icanhoppit.. the larvae best recieved are less than 24 hours old. I think that for you is important.

PH

With the Nicot system, there seems to be some debate about the age at which you remove the cell cups from the comb box. I've seen one days eggs recommended and fourth day larvae with royal jelly suggested. What's likely to be most successful, other things being equal?

CVB

 

[Anduril]

With the Nicot system, there seems to be some debate about the age at which you remove the cell cups from the comb box. I've seen one days eggs recommended and fourth day larvae with royal jelly suggested. What's likely to be most successful, other things being equal?

CVB

The bees may eat the eggs, the larval stage less than 24 hours old is ideal.

 

[Finman]

With the Nicot system, there seems to be some debate about the age at which you remove the cell cups from the comb box. I've seen one days eggs recommended and fourth day larvae with royal jelly suggested. What's likely to be most successful, other things being equal?

CVB

IT is easy to see, what happens....

Bees feed all larva with royal jelly 3 days. Fourth day larva is not possible. Larva feeding time is 5 days.

Bees fill the queen cell with royal jelly 5 days and then they cap it. Larva continues eating one day after capping.

The older the larva,the less cell has extra jelly. In emergency cells you do not find old dry jelly in the bottom.

Kill those cells which are capped too early.

 

[Finman]

.
Most succesfull method. Move so small larvae as you can. You cannot do it better.

This year I got good results with Miller method. I used 3 methods at same time in one hive. Grafting to cups gove worst result.

 

[Olivia9801]

Thank you for your responses.

I had previously read this issue covered by The Norfolk Honey Co. I find their series of video very good in general. I was disappointed to see that this technique also failed for him as well.

From reading it seems that my poor results maybe down to larvae size. I was going for ones that were approx 1/3 the width of the cell width, but feel from the advice that I need to select ones that are even smaller again?

A separate issue I have as well relates to my tube cutter lengths. I am going to replace the ten I have as at 25mm, as I found them to short. What aggravated the problem was that this 25mm is reduced even further due to the overlap of the rubber tube collar. Subsequently I found that I had to push the cut comb/cell the opposing way from the other side. This is with the rubber collar pushed as far back as possible. With gloves on it was a little cumbersome.

This time I am going to abort on using another often recommended point and that is regarding using spent bullet tubes. I find the material casing to thick compared with the equivalent brass tube used by many modellers. Although my tube ends are sharpened, feel cutting the wax will be better with thinner walls on the cutters.

 

[madasafish]

The bees may eat the eggs, the larval stage less than 24 hours old is ideal.

Eggs will be eaten in my experience.
Small larvae are much easier to see with a small pool of royal jelly looking through the back of the Nicot cage and through the cell bottoms.

I usually have to leave the queen in the cage for 2 days at present as there is little flow. It is easy to spot young larvae as the RJ pool is small...

I went from CP to Nicot as it is much easier to find larvae for my old eyes..

 

[For want of a better word]

On larvae age... Using the Nicot system ( or the Thornes drone cage system)
The queen is placed into the cage on day 0
Released on day 1
Eggs hatch on day 3
Graft/ punch or put cellcups to cell starter/finisher on Day 5

Taken from the BIBBA charts

Larvae are therefore 3 days old give or take an hour or so.

Any comments???

Yeghes da

 

[Finman]

Larvae are therefore 3 days old give or take an hour or so.

Any comments???

Yeghes da

Why 3 days old? What does it mean?

.

 

[Finman]

.
At least you can do this thing very complex. Perhaps we do not need law book in this.