Can the girls leave with no queen cells?

[italic63]

Hi everyone. They've swarmed again this year...
The family was very strong with brood on 8 frames and a good pattern. Plenty of stores and just over the last couple of days they'd started to occupy the supers with lots of bees...
Today they swarmed.
I've been checking them frame by frame every weekend and eliminating several queen cells. The last inspection was last Sunday.
Have i missed one or could there be another reason?
They were bearding for the last week or so but very calm suo due to the heat here in Italy was my guess...
Thanks for your precious advice

 

[Wilco]

Hi everyone. They've swarmed again this year...
The family was very strong with brood on 8 frames and a good pattern. Plenty of stores and just over the last couple of days they'd started to occupy the supers with lots of bees...
Today they swarmed.
I've been checking them frame by frame every weekend and eliminating several queen cells. The last inspection was last Sunday.
Have i missed one or could there be another reason?
They were bearding for the last week or so but very calm suo due to the heat here in Italy was my guess...
Thanks for your precious advice

Eliminating queen cells is not an effective method of swarm control - it won't stop them from swarming, it's just an attempt to delay it for a few days until you can do a proper split/nuc the queen/other method. They may well have got fed up making new ones after weeks of trying and just thought 'sod it, we're off'. Or you can hope there's one you've missed!

I'd recommend that next time you find queen cells you:

1. Take the queen, a frame of bees and a frame of stores and put them in a nuc then leave one good queen cell in the original hive.
2. Mark the top bar of the frame it's on with an arrow pointing to it.
3. A week later go back and destroy any other queen cells.
4. Then leave for three weeks.

If you're lucky you get an extra colony, if the QC fails or she fails to mate you just reunite the queen from the nuc and still have a big colony- either way you will avoid swarming.

 

[italic63]

Thanks for the quick reply as usual.
I was going to do exactly what you suggest but later in the spring summer...
I only have one hive and wanted to end up with two by the summer. I got greedy I guess but this is my second year and haven't collected a drop of honey yet. Depressing.

 

[Wilco]

Thanks for the quick reply as usual.
I was going to do exactly what you suggest but later in the spring summer...
I only have one hive and wanted to end up with two by the summer. I got greedy I guess but this is my second year and haven't collected a drop of honey yet. Depressing.

Your time will come and it will be worth it! I've learnt that if you focus on managing the bees, the honey will usually look after itself. If you fixate on honey, you risk losing the bees which means you lose the honey too.

You may need to buy in a queen but it's still fairly early in the season so there's time to get two colonies and honey still.

To do this, at this point I recommend:

1. Wait 2-3 weeks to see if you have a laying queen. If there is, go straight to #3.
2. If there is no queen at that point, buy one in immediately (should be doable in Italy?) and introduce her before the bees get too old to rear brood.
3. Let the colony grow. Once you have a full colony, either:
   1. move two frames, one of mostly sealed brood, one with eggs/young larvae and one frame of stores plus shake in some more, go back in a week and reduce to one queen cell, hope it mates and you have a nuc. OR
   2. Buy another queen. Move a frame of sealed brood, one of stores and shake in some bees.

This way you should get a full colony, hopefully some honey and at least a nuc as well.

 

[italic63]

Thanks for your reply. Your words are really comforting and I hope I can do what you suggest.
You're right.. Every mistake is a lesson

 

[italic63]

Your time will come and it will be worth it! I've learnt that if you focus on managing the bees, the honey will usually look after itself. If you fixate on honey, you risk losing the bees which means you lose the honey too.

You may need to buy in a queen but it's still fairly early in the season so there's time to get two colonies and honey still.

To do this, at this point I recommend:

1. Wait 2-3 weeks to see if you have a laying queen. If there is, go straight to #3.
2. If there is no queen at that point, buy one in immediately (should be doable in Italy?) and introduce her before the bees get too old to rear brood.
3. Let the colony grow. Once you have a full colony, either:
   1. move two frames, one of mostly sealed brood, one with eggs/young larvae and one frame of stores plus shake in some more, go back in a week and reduce to one queen cell, hope it mates and you have a nuc. OR
   2. Buy another queen. Move a frame of sealed brood, one of stores and shake in some bees.

This way you should get a full colony, hopefully some honey and at least a nuc as well.

Thanks for your reply. Your words are really comforting and I hope I can do what you suggest.
You're right.. Every mistake is a lesson

Hello again everyone.
Just a quick update since yesterday.
After the swarm I checked the super this morning and surprisingly it is still full of bees on every frame and full of uncapped honey!
I didn't open the brood chamber to avoid disturbing them.
My idea as suggested by you would be to leave the brood alone for 3 weeks hopefully they will have a new mated queen by then but in the meantime can I check on the super to see if they've capped it so maybe I can harvest some honey?
Thanks again

 

[Wilco]

Hello again everyone.
Just a quick update since yesterday.
After the swarm I checked the super this morning and surprisingly it is still full of bees on every frame and full of uncapped honey!
I didn't open the brood chamber to avoid disturbing them.
My idea as suggested by you would be to leave the brood alone for 3 weeks hopefully they will have a new mated queen by then but in the meantime can I check on the super to see if they've capped it so maybe I can harvest some honey?
Thanks again

This is a fairly normal finding after a swarm as they try to leave a viable colony behind. However, I would recommend that you go through the brood in the next day or two and leave only a single queen cell as there is a risk of multiple cast swarms if you don't, in which case you will have a significantly reduced colony at best.

 

[italic63]

Yes Ok I'll do that tomorrow thanks.
Perhaps I will find a virgin queen walking around

 

[Wilco]

Yes Ok I'll do that tomorrow thanks.
Perhaps I will find a virgin queen walking around

You may not see a VQ just yet but make sure there's only one queen cell, ideally a good one and should be sealed at this point. Once checked then leave alone for two to three weeks as per the plan.

 

[italic63]

Understood. Will do. I'll keep you posted and thanks again!

 

[italic63]

PS yes here in Italy I live in a rural area in the north. Plenty of beekeepers around so getting a queen will not be an issue.

 

[italic63]

This is a fairly normal finding after a swarm as they try to leave a viable colony behind. However, I would recommend that you go through the brood in the next day or two and leave only a single queen cell as there is a risk of multiple cast swarms if you don't, in which case you will have a significantly reduced colony at best.

Just a thought... Would it be asking too much if I find more than 1 QC to split the colony or best wait for a new mated queen and then evaluate?
Thanks

 

[Erichalfbee]

I wouldn’t split a swarmed colony. They have already lost upwards of 50% of their bees

 

[Wilco]

I wouldn’t split a swarmed colony. They have already lost upwards of 50% of their bees

Just a thought... Would it be asking too much if I find more than 1 QC to split the colony or best wait for a new mated queen and then evaluate?
Thanks

 

[elainemary]

Eliminating queen cells is not an effective method of swarm control - it won't stop them from swarming, it's just an attempt to delay it for a few days until you can do a proper split/nuc the queen/other method. They may well have got fed up making new ones after weeks of trying and just thought 'sod it, we're off'. Or you can hope there's one you've missed!

I'd recommend that next time you find queen cells you:

1. Take the queen, a frame of bees and a frame of stores and put them in a nuc then leave one good queen cell in the original hive.
2. Mark the top bar of the frame it's on with an arrow pointing to it.
3. A week later go back and destroy any other queen cells.
4. Then leave for three weeks.

If you're lucky you get an extra colony, if the QC fails or she fails to mate you just reunite the queen from the nuc and still have a big colony- either way you will avoid swarming.

Spot on, advice! Wish I’d been on this Forum when I was learning to keep bees.

 

[italic63]

You may not see a VQ just yet but make sure there's only one queen cell, ideally a good one and should be sealed at this point. Once checked then leave alone for two to three weeks as per the plan.

Ok so I checked the brood box following the swarm from two days ago.
Took the super off...frame cover was full of bees. Every super frame was full packed with bees and uncapped honey and beautiful white wax.
Brood box was overflowing with bees on every frame. Still plenty of capped brood on at least 5 frames (out of 10) and plenty of larvae on the edges even very small. No eggs.
4 frames of stores including a couple very heavy with uncapped honey. 1 remaining frame mixed stores/brood.
Nothing unusual in the brood pattern. Some capped drone brood.
Bees unusually aggressive. (due to loss of queen? )
Found 4 QC, 3 uncapped and one nice one capped which I marked on the top bar of the frame.
See pictures for more detail. I destroyed the other QC...
No sign of a VQ although difficult with so many bees.
My opinion for what is worth from a second year beekeeper is that they still need splitting but first I'm hoping they cap the honey in the super. They are certainly busy up there...
PS got stung once through my glove

 

[Wilco]

Ok so I checked the brood box following the swarm from two days ago.
Took the super off...frame cover was full of bees. Every super frame was full packed with bees and uncapped honey and beautiful white wax.
Brood box was overflowing with bees on every frame. Still plenty of capped brood on at least 5 frames (out of 10) and plenty of larvae on the edges even very small. No eggs.
4 frames of stores including a couple very heavy with uncapped honey. 1 remaining frame mixed stores/brood.
Nothing unusual in the brood pattern. Some capped drone brood.
Bees unusually aggressive. (due to loss of queen? )
Found 4 QC, 3 uncapped and one nice one capped which I marked on the top bar of the frame.
See pictures for more detail. I destroyed the other QC...
No sign of a VQ although difficult with so many bees.
My opinion for what is worth from a second year beekeeper is that they still need splitting but first I'm hoping they cap the honey in the super. They are certainly busy up there...
PS got stung once through my glove

Defensiveness likely due to being Q-.

Excellent, just wait for now.

Don't split. Because there's no mated queen there will be a period where no eggs are laid which means a period in three weeks when there are no new emerging bees, and that will last a couple of weeks. This will cause the colony numbers to drop naturally. The more bees there are when the new queen is laying, the faster they'll be able to recoup that loss and then you can start thinking about splits. To get a good honey crop, you need a disturbing number of bees. Keep them as large as you can!

Edit: add another super (below the existing super) they need space for nectar!!! @Finman has pointed out elsewhere on here that bees need extra supers for new nectar even while they are dehydrating the first.

Putting the new super under the first works the way the bees work plus means that if you want you can clear the first full super(s) without juggling boxes.

 

[Wilco]

Ok so I checked the brood box following the swarm from two days ago.
Took the super off...frame cover was full of bees. Every super frame was full packed with bees and uncapped honey and beautiful white wax.
Brood box was overflowing with bees on every frame. Still plenty of capped brood on at least 5 frames (out of 10) and plenty of larvae on the edges even very small. No eggs.
4 frames of stores including a couple very heavy with uncapped honey. 1 remaining frame mixed stores/brood.
Nothing unusual in the brood pattern. Some capped drone brood.
Bees unusually aggressive. (due to loss of queen? )
Found 4 QC, 3 uncapped and one nice one capped which I marked on the top bar of the frame.
See pictures for more detail. I destroyed the other QC...
No sign of a VQ although difficult with so many bees.
My opinion for what is worth from a second year beekeeper is that they still need splitting but first I'm hoping they cap the honey in the super. They are certainly busy up there...
PS got stung once through my glove

Just drawing attention to the edit as suspect you were reading the post while I added a bit and may not have seen it.

 

[italic63]

Defensiveness likely due to being Q-.

Excellent, just wait for now.

Don't split. Because there's no mated queen there will be a period where no eggs are laid which means a period in three weeks when there are no new emerging bees, and that will last a couple of weeks. This will cause the colony numbers to drop naturally. The more bees there are when the new queen is laying, the faster they'll be able to recoup that loss and then you can start thinking about splits. To get a good honey crop, you need a disturbing number of bees. Keep them as large as you can!

Edit: add another super (below the existing super) they need space for nectar!!! @Finman has pointed out elsewhere on here that bees need extra supers for new nectar even while they are dehydrating the first.

Putting the new super under the first works the way the bees work plus means that if you want you can clear the first full super(s) without juggling boxes.

Ok will do.
Thank you so much for your advice. It makes all the difference not feeling alone.
The only reason I mention a split is because all frames are full and there still plenty of foraging going on...
I will follow your instructions of course. Is it OK to take a peak at the super in about a week to see if they are capping the crop?

 

[italic63]

Defensiveness likely due to being Q-.

Excellent, just wait for now.

Don't split. Because there's no mated queen there will be a period where no eggs are laid which means a period in three weeks when there are no new emerging bees, and that will last a couple of weeks. This will cause the colony numbers to drop naturally. The more bees there are when the new queen is laying, the faster they'll be able to recoup that loss and then you can start thinking about splits. To get a good honey crop, you need a disturbing number of bees. Keep them as large as you can!

Edit: add another super (below the existing super) they need space for nectar!!! @Finman has pointed out elsewhere on here that bees need extra supers for new nectar even while they are dehydrating the first.

Putting the new super under the first works the way the bees work plus means that if you want you can clear the first full super(s) without juggling boxes.

Great yes. Makes sense. I will do that this afternoon although I only have foundation. No drawn frames (yet)