1st Split Attempt

[italic63]

Queen is still there and moving around nicely but no laying as of a couple of days ago (5 days after the split).

I tried feeding them a couple of days ago and now done bees flying outside the nuc but haven't gone back to see if she's laying.

 

[ericbeaumont]

The Q+ nuc will have lost flyers back to the original site after you took her out, so feeding a little after that time will do no harm. If you feed before the flyers go home, they take the message re. feed and the nuc may be robbed.

You real nettle to grasp is to investigate the colony on the original site.

Smoker lit?

 

[italic63]

The Q+ nuc will have lost flyers back to the original site after you took her out, so feeding a little after that time will do no harm. If you feed before the flyers go home, they take the message re. feed and the nuc may be robbed.

You real nettle to grasp is to investigate the colony on the original site.

Smoker lit?

. Would love to but thunder and rain has just started so I need to equity until the morning I'm afraid.
They won't swarm without a queen I guess so first job will be to look for a new queen virgin or otherwise. Do I then destroy all other queen cells?
Do I cage the new queen so I can shake the bees and ensure I get all the queen cells?

 

[ericbeaumont]

They won't swarm without a queen I guess so first job will be to look for a new queen virgin or otherwise

Look first at the status of the QCs.

If you see stage 1, accept there is a virgin in there but don't bother trying to find her: they scuttle about and may be not much bigger than a worker.

1 A cell sawn open neatly at the tip, perhaps with the lid hanging like a submarine hatch, showing a queen has emerged.

2 A cell sealed but with a darker tip, suggesting bees have thinned the wax to aid imminent emergence.

3 An open cell.

If you see stage 1, all other QCs must be removed and you must take time to shake bees off combs into the BB (in case you shake off the virgin) to check for hidden cells. Make nucs if you wish.

If you don't see stage 1 but do see stage 2, you can make up a couple of nucs with one each, and remove all the rest but for your chosen cell.

If you see stage 2 and 3 only, you could remove all sealed cells and leave one good open cell, because they say that seeing the larva in the cell is safer than assuming a sealed cell is viable. I use sealed cells and have not had problems.

Be aware: if there are present sealed cells about to emerge, your disturbance tomorrow may disperse workers holding the queens back from emerging.

Check the darker tips of sealed cells: have a sharp knife handy as a hive tool won't cut the cocoon. Tease open the tip. If she crawls out, put her in a cage or container for safety and go through the colony to make up nucs.

Other queens may emerge. Don't worry, so long as they're all out and none left in cells, they won't swarm but will fight it out. Pop the virgin back in at the end.

Obviously, I hope you make use of QCs and virgins to increase your stocks and have nucs as insurance.

 

[italic63]

Wow! Thank you!!
So I'm just waiting for the sun to come out and plan going in in the next couple of hours. I will take notes and photos to share.
In terms of equipment, I have two hives with 2 supers each plus an empty poly nuc box. My plan is to keep two healthy hives ongoing. Don't really need more than that. I think I will follow your advice and also create a nuc as a reserve with the appropriate QC based on what I find today.
Will I still risk congestion in the"queenless" hive or is that ok if QCs are managed as you suggest?
Also. The original queen has plenty of space at the moment. Should I put more bees in there also today?
Thanks again

 

[Erichalfbee]

If you see stage 2 and 3 only, you could remove all sealed cells and leave one good open cell, because they say that seeing the larva in the cell is safer than assuming a sealed cell is viable. I use sealed cells and have not had problems.

That's more so that you know when the new queen will emerge rather than knowing it's viable

 

[Erichalfbee]

Look first at the status of the QCs.

Thanks Eric
I've added this to the stickies under "QUEEN CELLS IN MY HIVE"

 

[ericbeaumont]

risk congestion in the"queenless" hive or is that ok if QCs are managed as you suggest?

Congestion can be answered by adding another box: put half the brood frames in the centre of the new box, rest in the centre of the old. Add new frames to the flanks of both boxes and reassemble.

If you prefer, bung the new box on top, but they may just use it as super in the absence of a laying Q or brood. No disaster: extract and use again.

Principle is to give bees no option: one QC and no avenue to make more. If you leave more than one they will swarm!

Extra nucs are a backup because queens can fail to return from mating, or return to the wrong hive and be killed. I heard that last year in one part of Italy queen mating was down to 20something % due to predation by birds.

 

[italic63]

Look first at the status of the QCs.

If you see stage 1, accept there is a virgin in there but don't bother trying to find her: they scuttle about and may be not much bigger than a worker.

1 A cell sawn open neatly at the tip, perhaps with the lid hanging like a submarine hatch, showing a queen has emerged.

2 A cell sealed but with a darker tip, suggesting bees have thinned the wax to aid imminent emergence.

3 An open cell.

If you see stage 1, all other QCs must be removed and you must take time to shake bees off combs into the BB (in case you shake off the virgin) to check for hidden cells. Make nucs if you wish.

If you don't see stage 1 but do see stage 2, you can make up a couple of nucs with one each, and remove all the rest but for your chosen cell.

If you see stage 2 and 3 only, you could remove all sealed cells and leave one good open cell, because they say that seeing the larva in the cell is safer than assuming a sealed cell is viable. I use sealed cells and have not had problems.

Be aware: if there are present sealed cells about to emerge, your disturbance tomorrow may disperse workers holding the queens back from emerging.

Check the darker tips of sealed cells: have a sharp knife handy as a hive tool won't cut the cocoon. Tease open the tip. If she crawls out, put her in a cage or container for safety and go through the colony to make up nucs.

Other queens may emerge. Don't worry, so long as they're all out and none left in cells, they won't swarm but will fight it out. Pop the virgin back in at the end.

Obviously, I hope you make use of QCs and virgins to increase your stocks and have nucs as insurance.

So here I am again after surviving the most daunting inspection I have ever done.
It was mayhem as predicted and I found one of everything .
I'll try and make it as clear as possible.
TONS of bees. See photo after opening up and shaking bees INTO the BB.
Most frames had a nice amount of stores and some old capped brood.
At least 5 frames out of 10 had 1 or more queen cells.
I counted about:
- 3 hatched queen cells
- 8 capped large queen cells
- 1 capped dark tipped queen cells which I cut open and a new queen crawled out (now in a cage)
- 8 open queen cells
No sign of a queen but impossible to spot.
Super full of honey which they are just starting to cap.
I put in a second super to give them more room.
Please see photos
So...
- I got rid of all the queen cells and just kept the new born queen.
- What do I do with the new virgin queen I caged today? If I put her in a nuc how can I be sure I don't put another queen in with her by mistake when adding bees? Do I use bees from above the excluder?
- as I saw more than one hatched queen cells, could there be 2 Queens and therefore swarming is still possible?

Thanks

 

[Erichalfbee]

I would have opened ALL of them and closed up

 

[italic63]

I would have opened ALL of them and closed up

What about the other queens which seemed to have emerged (3)? Isn't that just inviting them to swarm?
Thanks

 

[Erichalfbee]

No. If you let EVERY single queen out and destroy ALL other cells the bees sort it out down to one queen themselves
https://wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/wbka-booklet-english-PDF.pdf
Page 17

 

[italic63]

No. If you let EVERY single queen out and destroy ALL other cells the bees sort it out down to one queen themselves
https://wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/wbka-booklet-english-PDF.pdf
Page 17

Excellent document thank you!
I dropped her in and within seconds they smothered her I'm afraid...

 

[italic63]

This afternoon they all came out at once. A massive cloud. Looks like swarming trials. after about 30 minutes they went back in. What happens if they swarm after all and I've destroyed all the queen cells??
See attached

 

[Erichalfbee]

I've destroyed all the queen cells??

That doesn’t matter in the equation. There are virgins running around in there

 

[italic63]

Ok understood. So will they swarm do you think?

 

[Erichalfbee]

God knows

 

[RichardK]

Congestion can be answered by adding another box: put half the brood frames in the centre of the new box, rest in the centre of the old. Add new frames to the flanks of both boxes and reassemble.

If you prefer, bung the new box on top, but they may just use it as super in the absence of a laying Q or brood. No disaster: extract and use again.

Principle is to give bees no option: one QC and no avenue to make more. If you leave more than one they will swarm!

Extra nucs are a backup because queens can fail to return from mating, or return to the wrong hive and be killed. I heard that last year in one part of Italy queen mating was down to 20something % due to predation by birds.

The OP is using Dadant hives which are already pretty big as a single brood box. A double brood Dadant is going to be a monster of a hive & not something I've ever seen here in France where they're extensively used. As I understand it, yes it can happen, but only in extreme circumstances (...& granted, there were a lot of bees there...). As a relative beginner myself, I wouldn't be too keen to do it. If the frames were organised as you suggested, I'd be sorely tempted to take the top box off, frames included, and create a new colony. Or am I just being a wuss?!

 

[ericbeaumont]

there were a lot of bees there

Fair point, Richard, and a tired brain led me to forget, but that is a sensational number of bees to cram in any single box and expect it not to swarm.

Yes, giving another BB and then splitting may have relieved the pressure, but pressure has been building in that colony since Christmas! Given the mountain of bees to sort, Mr Italic has done a pretty good job and seems to have enjoyed himself doing it.

What happens if they swarm after all and I've destroyed all the queen cells??

If you destroy all the QCs they won't swarm but if you haven't they will, and if you have and they don't, get more supers ready pronto because you'll have a truly ginormous crop by the end of the season.

If I put her in a nuc how can I be sure I don't put another queen in with her by mistake when adding bees?

Did you make up a nuc for insurance, or to take through winter to cover losses?

It doesn't matter if you put 2 or 22 emerged virgins in a nuc, because if you keep the nuc in the same apiary the flyers will leave it the next day and return to the home lodged in the bee satnav - the original location. The nuc will be weakened and so give up the idea of swarming (we hope, with luck, probably, most likely) and settle down with one queen.

 

[italic63]

I confirm... Really enjoyed myself today!! .
Shook off all bees into the BB (Hence the bee covered hive). I am 99% certain I got all the QCs. Triple checked all frames. She is a super queen and has already filled the 4 frame Nuc I put her in with fresh new brood!
The bees from the queenless hive all came out into a cloud about 2 hours after the inspection but went back in after about 30 minutes. (See video in previous post)
Fingers crossed they won't swarm now.
Question:
Do I now leave them for a couple of weeks and then check for brood?