First split very nervous

[italic63]

Hi from Italy everyone.
I started a couple of threads last year regarding swarm prevention. I only have 1 hive and it's swarmed twice over the last two years.
This year I am determined to split them.
I've started regular inspections and I must say they are looking good. Brood on 9 frames and the hive is already bursting with bees.
I inspected today found the Queen and lots of larvae, capped brood and stores. I marked the Queen as she's been difficult to find in the past but as of today I couldn't see any swarm cells at all.
My question is... Can I or should I split them now or wait for swarm cells to appear?
I'm really worried about waiting until it's too late.
Previous years they always swarmed at the beginning of May.
Thanks very much for your advice

 

[blackcloud]

Forget the calendar and keep your eye on the frames.
Once you see a swarm cell you have a weeks wriggle room even if you're not fully prepared.
You could do a pre-emptive split and still have them go

 

[Ian123]

Running a couple of hives is really for the best and added insurance as far as the bees and your beekeeping is concerned. Ensure you have enough kit!!
Try and find a local beekeeper to visit and get an idea on management in your area. Some may run dbl brood boxes or single larger broods. If you restrict the queen even first year nucs can swarm.

Regarding splitting you have many options, wait till they produce swarm cells and then split… buy in a mated queen and make a split with her. Or even do a walk away split leaving a queens less part to raise 1. You could do a demeree getting the top box to raise their own!
Give us an idea on what your trying to achieve or think your capable of and am sure the advice Will follow.

 

[RichardK]

I've started regular inspections and I must say they are looking good. Brood on 9 frames and the hive is already bursting with bees.

I'd suggest you get a super on there as soon as possible if your haven't already. Here in France double brood Dadant is extremely rare (so I've been told), so I'm guessing it's the same your way? As long as you're inspecting each week you'll be able to manage the situation whatever happens. Although you could take a split now, it will negatively impact the hives honey production - you could maximise production and then take a split or two come July once the season is over (or at least, that's the end where I'm located).

As Ian says, tell us what you wish to achieve and suitable advice (from far more experienced people than me) will follow.

 

[italic63]

Running a couple of hives is really for the best and added insurance as far as the bees and your beekeeping is concerned. Ensure you have enough kit!!
Try and find a local beekeeper to visit and get an idea on management in your area. Some may run dbl brood boxes or single larger broods. If you restrict the queen even first year nucs can swarm.

Regarding splitting you have many options, wait till they produce swarm cells and then split… buy in a mated queen and make a split with her. Or even do a walk away split leaving a queens less part to raise 1. You could do a demeree getting the top box to raise their own!
Give us an idea on what your trying to achieve or think your capable of and am sure the advice Will follow.

Thanks very much for the quick response as usual! I have a second brood box with Foundation on frames and 4 supers in total. I don't need dozens of hives. Would be happy with 2 strong colonies by the summer. Bees are very calm so another queen from those genetics would be great.
I'd like to wait for the first Queen cells to appear and split them before they emerge obviously.

 

[italic63]

I'd suggest you get a super on there as soon as possible if your haven't already. Here in France double brood Dadant is extremely rare (so I've been told), so I'm guessing it's the same your way? As long as you're inspecting each week you'll be able to manage the situation whatever happens. Although you could take a split now, it will negatively impact the hives honey production - you could maximise production and then take a split or two come July once the season is over (or at least, that's the end where I'm located).

As Ian says, tell us what you wish to achieve and suitable advice (from far more experienced people than me) will follow.

Yes I'm in the North of Italy so similar weather I imagine.
I'm nervous about waiting until July because as mentioned both times they swarmed very early in May.
I think I'll wait to see swarm queen cells and then split them. In the meantime I'll put a super on.
Thanks

 

[ericbeaumont]

both times they swarmed very early in May

Lack of brood space & age of the queen are two factors that provoke swarming.

Your queen is first year, so the colony is less likely to go, but the fact they did go in the last two years suggests space was lacking.

Are you on Langstroth? Lot more bees will be in there soon, so I agree with Richard: put on a super, at least.

Once the colony & weather is really booming you can't really give too much space, at least up to the main flow. Too little leads to the inevitable.

 

[italic63]

Lack of brood space & age of the queen are two factors that provoke swarming.

Your queen is first year, so the colony is less likely to go, but the fact they did go in the last two years suggests space was lacking.

Are you on Langstroth? Lot more bees will be in there soon, so I agree with Richard: put on a super, at least.

Once the colony & weather is really booming you can't really give too much space, at least up to the main flow. Too little leads to the inevitable.

I am using a Dadant Blatt hive. I will put a super on tomorrow morning.
Thanks

 

[fian]

My advice is that before putting the super (within two weeks) remove 3 frames with brood (2), honey (1) for a nucleus or new hive. Additionally you shake one of bees. You leave the queen in the old hive.
Ideally, you should move the two hives as far away as possible (ideally 3km) during those 2 weeks.
If before placing the super you notice cells or you have more than 9 frames, you will remove 2 frames without bees (more closed than open). You take the pictures to the new hives and arrange them near the real cells that they will breed.

 

[Moobee]

Thanks very much for the quick response as usual! I have a second brood box with Foundation on frames and 4 supers in total. I don't need dozens of hives. Would be happy with 2 strong colonies by the summer. Bees are very calm so another queen from those genetics would be great.
I'd like to wait for the first Queen cells to appear and split them before they emerge obviously.

You could do a preemptive split when drones start appearing, but no point before then.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

My advice is that before putting the super (within two weeks) remove 3 frames with brood (2), honey (1) for a nucleus or new hive. Additionally you shake one of bees. You leave the queen in the old hive.

Why on earth would you want to split a hive before it's even strong enough to make income?
The whole point of keeping bees is to get honey
Not to avoid making it.

 

[Mabee]

You need to have mature drones in the area first, so approximately 40 days after you see drone brood. You could do a preemptive split approximately two weeks before that.

 

[The Stung]

Perhaps also put up a bait hive during the time periods where you feel there is the highest risk of them swarming. This will give you a little more security that if you do miss the queen cells during inspection and they swarm, all is not lost.

If you catch your own swarm, you will be able to recombine into one hive again in good time. Not as good as swarm prevention, but it gives you additional options for recovery if the worst happens.

 

[fian]

Why on earth would you want to split a hive before it's even strong enough to make income?
The whole point of keeping bees is to get honey
Not to avoid making it.

Before the harvest season is the swarming season, it is a preventive measure.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

preventing them from making honey maybe

 

[fian]

preventing them from making honey maybe

And if a swarm occurs, it loses half the hive and another part of its reserves. Sometimes less is more.

 

[ericbeaumont]

less is more

By all means split before the main flow, but that achieves only one job. To get honey, unite as much as can be spared on or just before the main flow.

recombine into one hive again in good time

Like this.