Buying some new queens

[Finman]

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When over 90% out of beekeepers are 2-hive owners, they surely will keep their local queens and drones.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

You constantly bemoan local bees but you don't seem able to grasp that local bees around here are not the local bees near you, you have no experience of them, yet you condemn them all. The queens I am talking about are local to the OP and there are others who confirm their quality.
Why you lot have to set about Uncle Betty like a gang of playground bullies is quite pathetic but his calm, reasoned replies to your arrogance is admirable and just about sums you up.

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[Uncle Betty]

Not that I wish to get involved with this silly spat as over the short time I have kept bees (15yrs) it is clearly evident that some bee keepers are very 'precious' about their own bees and will never be willing to accept anything different. However before having a dig at the responses Uncle Betty has received , I think it would be wise to look at what sparked the replies he got and look at his first post to this thread (no. 26) ?
S

There's absolutely nothing wrong with what I wrote in post 26.

I called this characterisation...

Most local bees - from local stock - are the spawn of Satan being swarmy, unproductive, stingy and generally useless

... 'silly hyperbole'. That is precisely what it is.

Which is why he withdrew the sweeping generalisation in post #48. He said...

I apologise that I said "MOST local bees are the spawn of Satan..etc".

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=630468&postcount=48

As I said previously, if it weren't such an egregious exaggeration, no clarification would have been necessary.

QED

 

[colinc]

The way these threads all descend into this, maybe the forum should be split into “local” and “non local”?

We can build a wall, a really big wall, a firewall to keep everyone apart,

It will be the best wall ever built.......


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[Uncle Betty]

You constantly bemoan local bees but you don't seem able to grasp that local bees around here are not the local bees near you, you have no experience of them, yet you condemn them all. The queens I am talking about are local to the OP and there are others who confirm their quality.
Why you lot have to set about Uncle Betty like a gang of playground bullies is quite pathetic but his calm, reasoned replies to your arrogance is admirable and just about sums you up.

Again, thank you for the kind words.

 

[B+.]

You constantly bemoan local bees but you don't seem able to grasp that local bees around here are not the local bees near you, you have no experience of them, yet you condemn them all. The queens I am talking about are local to the OP and there are others who confirm their quality.
Why you lot have to set about Uncle Betty like a gang of playground bullies is quite pathetic but his calm, reasoned replies to your arrogance is admirable and just about sums you up.

If this is your experience, then, I'm very happy for you, but, similarly, you have to acknowledge that this is not everyones experience/view (as evidenced by the comments posted above). To those of us who have bad experience of the "local" bees it is like a "red rag to a bull" when we see others supporting them. Furthermore, you should understand that our attempts at improvement are an attempt to improve our situation.

 

[Uncle Betty]

If this is your experience, then, I'm very happy for you, but, similarly, you have to acknowledge that this is not everyones experience/view (as evidenced by the comments posted above). To those of us who have bad experience of the "local" bees it is like a "red rag to a bull" when we see others supporting them. Furthermore, you should understand that our attempts at improvement are an attempt to improve our situation.

That's absolutely understandable in it's own terms.

On the other hand you have been very swift to admonish others that in the choice of bees that we keep, 'it is a free country'.

So really there's an inconsistency in your position there.

People who are prone to reacting like a bull to a red rag should probably leave the advocacy to others.

As our mutual friend Isaac Newton is alleged to have said ( I can't find the source, and I have my doubts, but please tell me if you know )

Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy.

As I said before, I wish you well with your work.


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[Beefriendly]

... 'silly hyperbole'. That is precisely what it is.

Which is why he withdrew the sweeping generalisation in post #48. He said...

I apologise that I said "MOST local bees are the spawn of Satan..etc".

Me thinks you are being a little selective with with your editing. What Madasafish actually said was......

I apologise that I said "MOST local bees are the spawn of Satan..etc".

ALL the local bees I have encountered locally have been a waste of hive space.

 

[B+.]

People who are prone to reacting like a bull to a red rag should probably leave the advocacy to others.

Actually, no. I disagree. Those of us who have had bad experience with "local" mongrels have every right to express our views.

 

[Uncle Betty]

Actually, no. I disagree. Those of us who have had bad experience with "local" mongrels have every right to express our views.

Of course you do. I absolutely agree.

But you want to do more than that though, yes ? I mean, there is a bigger picture for you, that you wish to promote.

 

[B+.]

Of course you do. I absolutely agree.

But you want to do more than that though, yes ? I mean, there is a bigger picture for you, that you wish to promote.

Of course, I've made no secret of my desire for more people to test their colonies. That's the only way the stock will improve in this country.
I've seen many comments on here about the superior stock in other countries (Germany, Austria, etc - https://youtu.be/gaz7lv8dibY?t=2m4s) and have experienced it for myself. A few people on here have visited my apiaries and seen it too. That doesn't happen by magic. That's why I encourage everyone to test their colonies so they have real data, not anecdotes.

 

[SDM]

And let's face it until keepers of local bees do start assessing their bees, any claim that this is the way forward is simply faith based zealotry.

 

[colinc]

I refuse to take sides in this one but on one side you have tested calm productive bees where it is accepted that there is a need to source new stock or send good queens to controlled isolated mating stations to keep them calm and productive and true to type.

On the other you have Amm keepers and advocates dictating what their neighbours should keep or not keep in their proximity to stop the dreaded mongrelisation. Without reserves for Amm, ultimately mongrels will always result.

The B+ system of using isolated colonies does actually have the more reliable results and you can trust the outcome more. But if you have calm local bees which produce enough honey for you and them that is fantastic.

Personally I am located between 2 big commercial keepers who keep Buckfast type, close to the mating apiary of one. if I were to try to go local then I would have firecrackers. I source UK queens but F1/F2 from these produce little honey and are feisty, as a garden beekeeper this won’t do.

As I see it the repeated arguments on local vs imported will never be resolved so it is likely time to live and let live. The information and the backup plans for feisty colonies needs to be out there though.


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[B+.]

The B+ system of using isolated colonies does actually have the more reliable results and you can trust the outcome more. But if you have calm local bees which produce enough honey for you and them that is fantastic.

Just a small correction: it isn't MY system. I learned from German and Dutch breeders (http://www.toleranzzucht.de/fileadmin/websitedateien/pdf/Methodenhandbuch_2._Auflage_2013-03-13.pdf)
It is well described in "Selektion bei der Honigbiene" (in German) but you can get an overview from these films (in English) [ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm7RqXJD4_w and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCcbj1Gv9UM ]

 

[colinc]

Just a small correction: it isn't MY system. I learned from German and Dutch breeders (http://www.toleranzzucht.de/fileadmin/websitedateien/pdf/Methodenhandbuch_2._Auflage_2013-03-13.pdf)
It is well described in "Selektion bei der Honigbiene" (in German) but you can get an overview from these films (in English) [ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm7RqXJD4_w and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCcbj1Gv9UM ]

That wasn’t my point, just that you are the most vocal and involved participant here.

It is horses for courses and I know your reasons. As a newcomer with garden bees and kids and neighbours I lean the same way. I will never manage local. If I was in the Highlands and Islands, Ireland or West Cornwall or Wales perhaps I would have a different perspective.

Local to me is buckfast as explained but F1 are a lottery (50:50 placid) and F2 are vile. I will budget for the purchase of Geds and Peters Queens.


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[Beefriendly]

Local to me is buckfast as explained but F1 are a lottery (50:50 placid) and F2 are vile. I will budget for the purchase of Geds and Peters Queens.

F1? Where are you starting from? My F0 (if you like) are Isolated mated queens and their offspring (my F1's) are superb, the F2's are a lottery....and woe betide me missing a queen cell when they swarm.....
Ged's queens, as far as I'm aware, are open mated from Keld Branstrups Isolated mated Buckfast queens. So if you are getting 50;50 suspect you are breeding from what I would already call F1's....confusing isn't it when we don't use the same language
I hear of people successfully getting three generations or more from open mated Buckfast queens, My suspicion is these keepers live in areas where the local mongrels are placid so the aggressive genes are not present in the local drone populations. Be interesting to pursue that idea further.

 

[colinc]

F1? Where are you starting from? My F0 (if you like) are Isolated mated queens and their offspring (my F1's) are superb, the F2's are a lottery....and woe betide me missing a queen cell when they swarm.....
Ged's queens, as far as I'm aware, are open mated from Keld Branstrups Isolated mated Buckfast queens. So if you are getting 50;50 suspect you are breeding from what I would already call F1's....confusing isn't it when we don't use the same language
I hear of people successfully getting three generations or more from open mated Buckfast queens, My suspicion is these keepers live in areas where the local mongrels are placid so the aggressive genes are not present in the local drone populations. Be interesting to pursue that idea further.

That’s my point, I haven’t bred from Geds as only just introduced them. Personally if my bees go hot I replace the Queen. I am not in a position to raise queens as I don’t have an out apiary to create a cell builder in and I am not going to try that in my garden. Regardless of whether they are F0 or F6, unless I was willing to make my garden a no go zone for a few generations to see if they go placid and for no honey return I will buy in queens.

As I said horses for courses. I will never get and keep local, let alone “native”, whatever that is, here.

Maybe next year I will invest in an island mated Queen to requiem my own colonies with F1’s


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[Finman]

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Why can't you buy queens with less noice?
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[colinc]

Noice?


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[Finman]

Noice?


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I meant noise