Buying some new queens

[Millet]

That’s my point, I haven’t bred from Geds as only just introduced them. Personally if my bees go hot I replace the Queen. I am not in a position to raise queens as I don’t have an out apiary to create a cell builder in and I am not going to try that in my garden. Regardless of whether they are F0 or F6, unless I was willing to make my garden a no go zone for a few generations to see if they go placid and for no honey return I will buy in queens.

As I said horses for courses. I will never get and keep local, let alone “native”, whatever that is, here.

Maybe next year I will invest in an island mated Queen to requiem my own colonies with F1’s


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Try one of them proper Keld Queens i have a f1 or i did..might still have ? that has filled one super and half filled another three which is unheard of in this location and i doubt if anyone would believe me, i have four supers on that hive one is full fresh foundation incase they get going again, i dread to think of the size of this stack if i lived in a warmer place down sarf.

 

[Angry_Mob]

Ged breeds from Keld Brandstrup breeder queens.

 

[Millet]

Ged breeds from Keld Brandstrup breeder queens.

So do many other folk i guess.

 

[stevebrowning]

That’s my point, I haven’t bred from Geds as only just introduced them. Personally if my bees go hot I replace the Queen. I am not in a position to raise queens as I don’t have an out apiary to create a cell builder in and I am not going to try that in my garden. Regardless of whether they are F0 or F6, unless I was willing to make my garden a no go zone for a few generations to see if they go placid and for no honey return I will buy in queens.

As I said horses for courses. I will never get and keep local, let alone “native”, whatever that is, here.

Maybe next year I will invest in an island mated Queen to requiem my own colonies with F1’s


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I'm very happy to see your using Ged's queens, it all helps with my breeding efforts and your welcome to come to my mating site anytime you like, I have some station mated queens from Denmark and Germany you can have a look at if you wish Colin.

 

[B+.]

I have some station mated queens from Denmark and Germany

It's heartening to see that people are using control mated queens. However, that is only the beginning. To ensure that you propagate the best of these, you need to test a group (up to 8) of sister queens mated to the same drones in the same apiary. This will give you the confidence that the results are meaningful. Then, you can propagate the best.

There is lots of talk about Buckfast, but, these are not the only bees (I breed carnica). Indeed, without the means to control mate the progeny through island mating or instrumental insemination, you'd not be certain of the next generations pedigree.

The attached image (from Selektion bei der honigbiene, p 89) shows the effect on confidence of testing sister groups of varying size. There is little improvement above groups of 8. Therefore, this is the recommended group size for tests

 

[colinc]

I'm very happy to see your using Ged's queens, it all helps with my breeding efforts and your welcome to come to my mating site anytime you like, I have some station mated queens from Denmark and Germany you can have a look at if you wish Colin.

I would love to. I will send you a pm. As I have stated I am not in a position to “breed” queens properly and based my decisions on that as I had asked what bees you keep when I met you, I believe ChrisB keeps similar.

Thanks for the offer.


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[Swarm]

I refuse to take sides in this one but on one side you have tested calm productive bees where it is accepted that there is a need to source new stock or send good queens to controlled isolated mating stations to keep them calm and productive and true to type.

On the other you have Amm keepers and advocates dictating what their neighbours should keep or not keep in their proximity to stop the dreaded mongrelisation. Without reserves for Amm, ultimately mongrels will always result.

The B+ system of using isolated colonies does actually have the more reliable results and you can trust the outcome more. But if you have calm local bees which produce enough honey for you and them that is fantastic.

Personally I am located between 2 big commercial keepers who keep Buckfast type, close to the mating apiary of one. if I were to try to go local then I would have firecrackers. I source UK queens but F1/F2 from these produce little honey and are feisty, as a garden beekeeper this won’t do.

As I see it the repeated arguments on local vs imported will never be resolved so it is likely time to live and let live. The information and the backup plans for feisty colonies needs to be out there though.


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I'm not even going to rise but maybe you should re read a few threads. Defending your choice of bee against the constant barrage of insults from THE SAME PEOPLE is not dictating. When there is sustainable beekeeping with a population of worthwhile 'local' bees within an area, do you honestly think it's a good idea to introduce queens from outside that area?

 

[colinc]

I'm not even going to rise but maybe you should re read a few threads. Defending your choice of bee against the constant barrage of insults from THE SAME PEOPLE is not dictating. When there is sustainable beekeeping with a population of worthwhile 'local' bees within an area, do you honestly think it's a good idea to introduce queens from outside that area?

You missed the point I was making but never mind.

What gives you or anyone else (I AM NOT TAKING SIDES) the right to dictate what other people keep? A few geographically isolated places can do this, you are obviously fortunate and feel you can, but I don’t have a choice, my neighbours were there first, I won’t cry about it, I will go with the flow using similar bees which I hope will stay placid. If they don’t I will, as is my right, requeened with bought in queens. I have explained my reasons for this.

If a neighbour told me I was affecting his breeding program and tried to tell me I should change my practice I would probably turn as grumpy and defensive as you. If a close neighbour doesn’t have the same success as you then should they put up with grumpy to keep you happy and maintain your status quo?
Everyone arguing one way or the other on this thread is without realising it dictating because the enemy is mongrelisation and unfortunately that is already endemic.

Read what I wrote again, I wasn’t attacking anyone or fishing for the rise you came forward with. Thanks for the attack it washed straight off and good luck with your bees.


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[birdsandbees]

I will never get and keep local, let alone “native”, whatever that is, here.

that's the bit I would have expected to get a reaction!

maybe I'm reading it wrong but you seem to be implying that there is no such thing as Native do you not consider AMM' to be our Native bee or are you saying that you don't believe that they still exist?

 

[Beefriendly]

When there is sustainable beekeeping with a population of worthwhile 'local' bees within an area, do you honestly think it's a good idea to introduce queens from outside that area?

I would call that a form of dictating to others what they should or shouldn't keep in an area, at best moral blackmail.
A definition of "worthwhile" would be interesting.

 

[Beefriendly]

If a neighbour told me I was affecting his breeding program and tried to tell me I should change my practice I would probably turn as grumpy and defensive as you.

Firstly I'd want to know more about neighbors breeding program, the types of bees, placid/swarminess/fecundity/honey yields etc, how they were controlling the mating. And compare that information with stats from the bees I keep..
In my area I suspect I already know the answer, but in other areas I wouldn't be too sure.

 

[Anduril]

You missed the point I was making but never mind.

What gives you or anyone else (I AM NOT TAKING SIDES) the right to dictate what other people keep? A few geographically isolated places can do this, you are obviously fortunate and feel you can, but I don’t have a choice, my neighbours were there first, I won’t cry about it, I will go with the flow using similar bees which I hope will stay placid. If they don’t I will, as is my right, requeened with bought in queens. I have explained my reasons for this.

If a neighbour told me I was affecting his breeding program and tried to tell me I should change my practice I would probably turn as grumpy and defensive as you. If a close neighbour doesn’t have the same success as you then should they put up with grumpy to keep you happy and maintain your status quo?
Everyone arguing one way or the other on this thread is without realising it dictating because the enemy is mongrelisation and unfortunately that is already endemic.

Read what I wrote again, I wasn’t attacking anyone or fishing for the rise you came forward with. Thanks for the attack it washed straight off and good luck with your bees.


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IIRC Swarm used to have a home apiary, don't know where his out apiary is, but just using the home apiary as an example. 8 miles north west of him there is a beekeeper who openly admits to keeping vicious bees. Hopefully his apiary is nowhere near there.

 

[SDM]

Colin ,Pretty much everyone in the UK keeping local bees is keeping mongrels. So since as you put it , they're the "enemy" you offended the vast majority of "local" beekeepers.

 

[SDM]

IIRC Swarm used to have a home apiary, don't know where his out apiary is, but just using the home apiary as an example. 8 miles north west of him there is a beekeeper who openly admits to keeping vicious bees. Hopefully his apiary is nowhere near there.

I've been told by the heads of my local association and ex head/ current technical officerof the national association that "real bees should sting" I've handled one of the colonies they use for beginners splits, I was up to about a dozen stings when he said to close it. I offered to find and cull the queen when he told me he wanted it for splits. It's either side of their home apiary that I can't allow any queens to mate oddly enough.

 

[colinc]

Colin ,Pretty much everyone in the UK keeping local bees is keeping mongrels. So since as you put it , they're the "enemy" you offended the vast majority of "local" beekeepers.

Everyone on both sides of this thread blames mongrelisation and “outbreeding” for their problems whatever their current strain is.

I keep Buckfast, I admit that they are line bred mongrels, outbreeding locally sees them get hot.

I am not trying to offend anyone. There is no fix or answer to where this thread has gone. No one arguing or suggesting closed breeding systems is going to fix the problem in the UK esp as when stated swarm has a neighbour who is proud of his attack dogs.

Life is too short to try to make a civil conversation with some people on here. I merely stated my reasons but it seems some just want to argue with anything and anyone.

Yes I know Amm exist in localised pockets in isolated locations due to geography. Not a chance of anyone keeping them true breeding near me.


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[Millet]

Colin ,Pretty much everyone in the UK keeping local bees is keeping mongrels. So since as you put it , they're the "enemy" you offended the vast majority of "local" beekeepers.

It did not offend me.

 

[colinc]

It did not offend me.

Glad to see at least one soul on here who can rise above the petty blood feuds

I currently have 4 hives located between 4-500 commercial predominantly buckfast colonies. Maybe I should start a “Local/Native/Amm/carni/lingustica” (insert choice at will) and whilst I am at it bang my head against a wall and ponder why I don’t enjoy beekeeping.


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[Swarm]

I would call that a form of dictating to others what they should or shouldn't keep in an area, at best moral blackmail.
A definition of "worthwhile" would be interesting.

No doubt you would, I'm never surprised by your replies.

I asked a simple question, do I take it that you think it would be a good idea?

 

[Swarm]

Colin,
In your post that you think I should read again, I highlighted one part. I am certainly not grumpy, quite the opposite really but even when you don't take sides you accuse just one side of dictating and telling others what to do.
People slagging off other people's bees as not fit for hive space? Not to mention calling others 'Zealots'.
It's one way traffic.

As for the question, do you consider it a good idea?

 

[colinc]

Colin,

In your post that you think I should read again, I highlighted one part. I am certainly not grumpy, quite the opposite really but even when you don't take sides you accuse just one side of dictating and telling others what to do.

People slagging off other people's bees as not fit for hive space? Not to mention calling others 'Zealots'.

It's one way traffic.



As for the question, do you consider it a good idea?

The way you phrase the question no, however, who judges what is “good” for the location? Who tests progeny? Who decides the desirable honey production level?


All I was saying is that for the majority (and that is what counts in a democracy) your “ideal” is untenable. So B+ sends his queens to isolated mating and others buy queens in.

Do you think it fair that you tell anyone within 3 miles of your bees what they can or can’t keep.

This is a pointless discussion.


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