Buying some new queens

[Uncle Betty]

It's wonderful how people on here can concoct a world of their own from scant information.

So now what's your problem ?

You gave us enough information when you said...

At our agm this year, I asked people who raised "local" bees to assess them according to the same criteria I use. How many do you think accepted that challenge? Not one. I came to the conclusion that they were unable/unwilling to take part in an objective test.

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=630458&postcount=43

Pretty obvious that as I say, people aren't interested in buying into your way of thinking.

 

[Stiffy]

I gave up reading after page 3....I can seat in front of the TV and watch Jeremy Kyle for the rest!!!
For my pennies' worth, 4 seasons of open mating to build-up my mongrel workforce gave me the following results:
- Runny on the comb with a tendency to sting but not out of control.
- Stressed (that's me) due to high tendency to swarm
- hardly any honey
- Propolis tastic

I have given up on the idea of raising my own queens unless I can take my virgins somewhere else to be mated....and I re-queened all my colonies last year and getting some new stock this year.

With a good initial queen or two you should be able to produce your own for a few years as many of us on here do. Although I tend to change my breeder queens every two years their offspring will 'generally' breed good queens for at least another year or two.
S

 

[Uncle Betty]

I'm curious: what do you look for if not these traits?

I do look for those traits, but not to the extent that I am not interested in buying exotica from you or anyone else.

Perfectly valid to seek to improve what is there already.

I'm neither greedy nor avaricious, nor impressed by your skyscrapers.

Like I said, I don't need the money, nor the affirmation of others.

 

[B+.]

So now what's your problem ?

You gave us enough information when you said...
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=630458&postcount=43

Pretty obvious that as I say, people aren't interested in buying into your way of thinking.

The only thing that is obvious to me from that limited amount of information is that while people talk about "local" bees being good, they're not prepared to back it up with an objective test.
As ITLD says: "there are those who talk-the-talk and those who walk-the-walk".
Several people have shown interest - who wouldn't if they could access better queens? I'm just a little disappointed that none of the "local" bee enthusiasts (or, strangely enough, Buckfast advocates too) would "put their money where their mouth is". Without a side-by-side test, the only rational approach would be to proceed with the queens for which we have data (i.e. mine). If people fail to engage with a rational assessment, they can hardly complain when the results indicate a different approach.

 

[B+.]

I do look for those traits, but not to the extent that I am not interested in buying exotica from you or anyone else.

Perfectly valid to seek to improve what is there already.

I'm neither greedy nor avaricious, nor impressed by your skyscrapers.

Like I said, I don't need the money, nor the affirmation of others.

Excellent! I'm glad to hear it.
However, you seem to be saying that you only want to work with Amm? There is nothing wrong with that. Although, it would be a lot simpler if you just came out and said that, if that's what you meant?
Surely, if you agree that it's valid to seek to improve the bee you're working with (whatever population that may come from), you have to acknowledge that the "skyscrapers" you deride are a testament to a certain amount of success?

 

[Beefriendly]

You don't necessarily have to travel too far to get better results. I've apiaries 20 miles from home and about 5 miles apart where anything mated takes a distinct turn for aggressive, but at home temperament is consistently good.

This is a point I've been making for several years. Unfortunately both of my apiary sites (11 miles apart) long term breed aggressive bees. Every other beekeeper in the area that I know of, bar one is using local stock.

 

[Beefriendly]

(or, strangely enough, Buckfast advocates too) would "put their money where their mouth is". Without a side-by-side test,

I'm more than happy to B+. Just send me a couple of queens and next year we can compare and contrast. I have some Buckfast queens arriving mid-June so nowish is an ideal time to set things up for a direct comparison.

 

[Uncle Betty]

The only thing that is obvious to me from that limited amount of information is that while people talk about "local" bees being good, they're not prepared to back it up with an objective test.

As ITLD says: "there are those who talk-the-talk and those who walk-the-walk".
Several people have shown interest - who wouldn't if they could access better queens? I'm just a little disappointed that none of the "local" bee enthusiasts (or, strangely enough, Buckfast advocates too) would "put their money where their mouth is". Without a side-by-side test, the only rational approach would be to proceed with the queens for which we have data (i.e. mine). If people fail to engage with a rational assessment, they can hardly complain when the results indicate a different approach.

What does this all tell you about people ?

 

[B+.]

What does this all tell you about people ?

"there are those who talk-the-talk and those who walk-the-walk"

 

[Uncle Betty]

Excellent! I'm glad to hear it.
However, you seem to be saying that you only want to work with Amm? There is nothing wrong with that. Although, it would be a lot simpler if you just came out and said that, if that's what you meant?

I'm genuinely sorry, I thought that had become self-evident over the course of time. I never set out to mislead on that.

Surely, if you agree that it's valid to seek to improve the bee you're working with (whatever population that may come from), you have to acknowledge that the "skyscrapers" you deride are a testament to a certain amount of success?

A certain type of success, yes. Indeed they are. I'm not deriding that per se, it's just that I am not interested in abandoning amm in order to achieve/buy that success.

I prefer the challenge, the accumulation of experience and knowledge.


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It seems to me now that for many of you in the UK, assuming that people are not exaggerating here, 'local' bees have become unworkable. That simply doesn't pertain to me, nor do I hear it at our association meetings.

I don't have problems with chalkbrood, nor running, nor following. I wear latex gloves, for anti-propolis reasons. I get the very occasional sting, but I tend to assume that if I do, it is because I have made a wrong move. I close up and come back another time.

 

[Uncle Betty]

"there are those who talk-the-talk and those who walk-the-walk"

And those who are not impressed by showboating ?

 

[Poly Hive]

I know one thing and that is that I so prefer bees that I don't need to smoke.

Makes life so much more enjoyable when the bees are quiet and productive.

PH

 

[B+.]

I am not interested in abandoning amm in order to achieve/buy that success.

I prefer the challenge, the accumulation of experience and knowledge.

OK. I can respect someone who nails his colours to the mast, even though I firmly believe it's the wrong mast.
I have said many times on here that I learned far more about real bee breeding from the German and Dutch guys than I ever did in this country. However, being part of the process isn't "selling out". It's making an informed choice. As my tag-line says: I am standing on the shoulders of giants and benefiting from the work others have done before, but, I am also contributing to the work others will benefit from after me. That's the way I look at it.

 

[B+.]

And those who are not impressed by showboating ?

Look, it's quite simple: if I was shy and kept my mouth shut about everything I have learned and what I am doing, who would know about it?
I don't do it for admiration or recognition. I do it to pass on what I have learned. I didn't invent any of it. It's all here (http://www.coloss.org/standard-methods-for-rearing-and-selection-of-apis-mellifera-queens/) for anyone who wants to do what I have done

 

[BKF Admin]

I am only talking from my experience here,a friend purchased 4 queens from a company in the UK that sells nucs with imported queens last year.

He offered me a couple of frames for grafting.
I grafted about 12 queens and picked the best 2 to use.

Around the new year I treated both hives and could tell I may get problems this year with them as they decamped on mass to the outside of the hive for an hour at around minus 3 degrees.

They were my biggest colonies at the start of the season and needed to be supered very early.

Pop the lawn mower near them and they let you have it.
Inspect them with smoke or sugar water and they went mad,10 out of 5 for aggression !

When inspecting them 2 weeks ago they had around 80-100 pound of honey each BUT I got stung like never before,I have handled many carnie x hives in the past that have been really mean but never anything on this level,the original queens were buckfast imports.

I was taking clumps of stings of around 6-10 stings in each area of my body,hands,legs,back,shoulders,chest,arms it was carnage and they then chased me 50 yards.

Both queens are now no more and a valuable lesson has been learned.
I have always tried to breed calm bees to sell on and my honey yields have been around 40-50lb a hive.
Those grafts would of gone over 100lb no problem,is it worth it ?
NEVER !

 

[birdsandbees]

WOW!

yet another thread that has descended into two camps.

having spent the last 20 minutes reading through all posts I was just wondering, even if those who drone flood or have a high percentage of people keeping colonies headed up by Buckfast or whatever imported race in their area say that the local swarms are horrid, where do these swarms come from?

There surely cant be that many feral colonies in the area? statistically a good percentage of these swarms would have come from managed hives?

As has been pointed out all areas are different and huge harvests of Honey are only possible IF the forage is there to facilitate it.

I have twenty Hives at present most of which are 'local' mutts, I have two which I avoid going into the brood box as they would fit the spawn of Satin description and I would/will eventually re-queen however they both have four Supers on at present (no, they aren't empty ones and I've taken one off already)
the others are doing okay, couple of very late starters that struggled to come out of Winter but then I had zero losses.
On average they have three Supers on, one completely full, one almost full and one being filled, I've had to extract three already as they were getting to look like tower blocks with five Supers on.
temperament is fine on the others with a couple I would probably be confident to inspect without suiting up and I only use a bit of smoke to clear bees out of the way when closing up.

No signs of disease as yet and yes a few have tried to swarm but then the queens in those are two to three years old.

It would be nice to have all bees that are super calm and don't even seem to notice their hive being pulled apart but I'm happy with my local Mutts
They aren't deserving of the generalisation that locals aren't worth the Hive space.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

WOW!

It would be nice to have all bees that are super calm and don't even seem to notice their hive being pulled apart but I'm happy with my local Mutts
They aren't deserving of the generalisation that locals aren't worth the Hive space.

It's not a choice in my home apiary; I just had to dismantle the strongest colony I've ever had and the Q now resides in a nuc. Similar sort of hypothetical numbers to those @admin talks about, although it was probably heading closer to 200lbs. In a way it's good I have no choice: in an out apiary I'd probably put on armour and get on with it. But then the one thing that makes me seriously consider giving up is having to beat a retreat to the trees. Horses for courses but there is also a bit of a whiff in some posts in this thread of blaming the bees, and the practices of neighbours.

 

[SDM]

I do look for those traits, but not to the extent that I am not interested in buying exotica from you or anyone else.

Perfectly valid to seek to improve what is there already.

I'm neither greedy nor avaricious, nor impressed by your skyscrapers.

Like I said, I don't need the money, nor the affirmation of others.

Ahh so you just don't care if your bees aren't very good.
Nothing wrong with that I suppise.

 

[SDM]

Pretty obvious that as I say, people aren't interested in buying into your way of thinking.

Or don't want to see their "local bees" humiliated when compared with quality stock. After all it would rather dilute the "local bees are best" mantra.

 

[Uncle Betty]

OK. I can respect someone who nails his colours to the mast, even though I firmly believe it's the wrong mast.
I have said many times on here that I learned far more about real bee breeding from the German and Dutch guys than I ever did in this country. However, being part of the process isn't "selling out". It's making an informed choice. As my tag-line says: I am standing on the shoulders of giants and benefiting from the work others have done before, but, I am also contributing to the work others will benefit from after me. That's the way I look at it.

In truth, it's the 'seeing farther than others' in your tag that often comes through.

It isn't the wrong mast. We're on different ships.

But I wish you well in your work.