Buckfast or Carnica ... Which to choose?

[user 6228]

I've never bought in queens but as I look to start breeding queens I'm wondering about buying in some decent bees. How common is it that they become more defensive than if you just stick with your local mongrels?

maybe the bees that are aggressive are infected http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC321398/

 

[Goran]

I am unbiased, but I dislike the buckies same as Amm and A.ligustica.. Kidding..
Actually I don't have experience with all above I mentioned. But I believe all strains are with their good and bad sides.
So my only "choice" are carnies as native here ( other strains are not allowed to import), and my beekeeping is adapted to them. To reduce swarming and increase good qualities is what I strive from beginning. With my primitive selection progress is visible ( increase of good qualities). Most of the problems at my place that most of beeks hesitate to remove bad queens ( you have to have hard heart and hand, I pray for forgiveness for each queen I remove and move on further). Some carnies I have don't swarm at all with proper practice, some are in the middle with intention to swarm and some with spring only see tree branches and swarm endlessly ( often finished with laying workers) if don't intervene. Also about agrressiveness some can be held at apiary entrance as pit bulls and some are as lambs..
I wrote too much but I should only say that is no final solution, I think everyone has to contribute to improve quality of the stock they owe with their will and beekeeping practice. And this never ends, it is constant process.

 

[Bosleeu]

Have had Carnies in the past, they are very nice to work with and can really build up fast in Spring, but are hard work as far as swarming goes.

Had some Buckfast from a few places. Totally different swarming wise. Imported (dare I say) 3 queens from Germany last season and they are amazing. One of their daughters got her sixth super yesterday despite the weather we have had. No sign of swarming yet.

People say they become defensive after a few generations - have tried most including Italian and I have found that to be true of any bee and unless you do II or have an isolated mating area that will always be the case.

Worst bees for being defensive to me are the local swarms I get once in a while. Impossible to keep in a garden so they are shipped out or requeened pretty quickly.

 

[Finman]

People say they become defensive after a few generations.

Yes, because they are any more buckfasts

After 2 generations workers have only 1/4 out of original genes.

Defensive genes can return in first generation. It depends what kind of drones you have in surrouding.
But you may buy a new queen. Price is not much when queen is good.

 

[wessexmario]

What does Linux call your hard drive?

/dev/sda
/dev/sdb

no such thing as a "drive letter" in Linux, the file system including all mounted hard drives is a single hierarchy starting at /


getting back to the reason the original link didn't work, it's not the filesystem type that caused the error, it's that the original link was to a document location on your PC's hard drive, rather than one using an internet accessible URL.

This happens a lot with linked documents on forums.
Even if I had a 'C:' drive, I wouldn't have been able to access that PDF as the target document was physically on your PC, but the link when displayed in my browser would point locally to my PC.
It can be a difficult one to detect for the link poster, because you wouldn't be able to see that the link wouldn't work for anyone else, as it could successfully retrieve the document from your local hard drive.

 

[mbc]

/dev/sda
/dev/sdb

no such thing as a "drive letter" in Linux, the file system including all mounted hard drives is a single hierarchy starting at /


getting back to the reason the original link didn't work, it's not the filesystem type that caused the error, it's that the original link was to a document location on your PC's hard drive, rather than one using an internet accessible URL.

This happens a lot with linked documents on forums.
Even if I had a 'C:' drive, I wouldn't have been able to access that PDF as the target document was physically on your PC, but the link when displayed in my browser would point locally to my PC.
It can be a difficult one to detect for the link poster, because you wouldn't be able to see that the link wouldn't work for anyone else, as it could successfully retrieve the document from your local hard drive.

Lol. Tactfully corrected

 

[Thymallus]

Even if I had a 'C:' drive, I wouldn't have been able to access that PDF as the target document was physically on your PC, but the link when displayed in my browser would point locally to my PC.

What was even stranger was the www. link for the paper wouldn't copy and paste which was why I said to do a google search for that paper....which does bring it up.

 

[Thymallus]

Lol. Tactfully corrected

When someone is trying to be helpful but makes an error it is very wise to be tactful......

 

[Tremyfro]

Catching up on this thread......since my self imposed 'vacation'....
I have some Carniolan bees. They were my first bees. I don't know anything about their propensity to swarm.....as mine haven't shown any signs. The queen is in her third year now...so I am making increase from this colony. They are just the very best bees to handle. They move slowly over the comb and stay on it. They don't fly up when you open the hive. Not had a sting from these girls yet...unless you count when a bee was pinched by the hive tool in my husbands hand. They build up fast and end the season with a big nest. They are careful with their stores and don't gobble them up when the bad weather keeps them in. We don't use smoke with them...as there is no need.
They did have some varroa...but after treating they have dropped very few. I realised afterwards that the drop was low anyway...
If I was starting again...I would have only Carniolans. A pleasure to work with. Can sit and watch without fear. Our local bee colony are very buzzy in comparison....but after seeing some bees that local Beekeepers look after...I realise that ours are not so bad after all.
I much prefer the Carniolans...and they make great honey.

 

[For want of a better word]

Catching up on this thread......since my self imposed 'vacation'....
I have some Carniolan bees. They were my first bees. I don't know anything about their propensity to swarm.....as mine haven't shown any signs. The queen is in her third year now...so I am making increase from this colony. They are just the very best bees to handle. They move slowly over the comb and stay on it. They don't fly up when you open the hive. Not had a sting from these girls yet...unless you count when a bee was pinched by the hive tool in my husbands hand. They build up fast and end the season with a big nest. They are careful with their stores and don't gobble them up when the bad weather keeps them in. We don't use smoke with them...as there is no need.
They did have some varroa...but after treating they have dropped very few. I realised afterwards that the drop was low anyway...
If I was starting again...I would have only Carniolans. A pleasure to work with. Can sit and watch without fear. Our local bee colony are very buzzy in comparison....but after seeing some bees that local Beekeepers look after...I realise that ours are not so bad after all.
I much prefer the Carniolans...and they make great honey.

Now I wonder if you had Carniolians?... because what you are describing fits my experience of our Native Black bee to a T!

I suspect that many inexperienced beekeepers would confuse the types
Big Yellow = Buskfast or Italians
Black = Carniolians*

* being unaware of the endemic black bee because everyone and his uncle knows it was wiped out by Acarine disease some time ago.

Amm I being pedantic... or has the drive down from London caused me to become jaded due to the cretinous attitude and inexperience of todays average arrogant young male motorists!
... there I was sitting at a comfortable 55 in the M4 fast lane and every BMW and AUDI in creation had to drive right up my exhaust... flash lights and swerve abusively.... and 55 is absolutely flat out on My motability scooter!!!

Yeghes da

 

[Hivemaker.]

I suspect that many inexperienced beekeepers would confuse the types
Big Yellow = Buskfast or Italians

Buckfasts can also be dark, and other sub species as well as Italians can also be yellow.

 

[Thymallus]

Big Yellow = Buskfast or Italians
Black = Carniolians*

The only Carniolans I've seen in the flesh were a greyish brown, very distinguished. Although I know they do come in various shades.
The Buckfast I'm currently using (Danish and German ones) are both a light tan colour, no yellow to be seen, although others have yellowish ones.
My local mongrels are very black and easily distinguishable....although one hive seems to have picked up some yellow from somewhere and is noticeable calmer than the others.

 

[Finman]

.
Carniolan and Black bees is very easy to distinguise from each others.
And their nature has nothing common unless swarming.

The British have imported Black bees toeveryContinent of Earth, but it is any more nursd in those places. But Carniolan is very popular everywhere

Iancopits Tamar Valley and Native Bee Stories are fascinating, but nothing to do with reality.

 

[Finman]

Now I wonder if you had Carniolians?... because what you are describing fits my experience of our Native Black bee to a T!

I suspect that many inexperienced beekeepers would confuse the types
Big Yellow = Buskfast or Italians
Black = Carniolians*

2:

Have you thought that your Black bees are Carniolans.

Carniolan is dark, but not black. It is grey black and it has clear grey bands in abdomen. Its abdomen is sharp like Italians have. Genetically Carniolan is quite near Italians.

Black bee is brown black. Tip of abdomen is round. Queen is big size and strong hind legs.
I have not met calm black bees. But no one breeded them in Finland. They just existed.

I nursed black bees 30 years. I know something about "native".





.

 

[B+.]

The only Carniolans I've seen in the flesh were a greyish brown, very distinguished. Although I know they do come in various shades.
The Buckfast I'm currently using (Danish and German ones) are both a light tan colour, no yellow to be seen, although others have yellowish ones.
My local mongrels are very black and easily distinguishable....although one hive seems to have picked up some yellow from somewhere and is noticeable calmer than the others.

This is what Carniolans look like

 

[Finman]

This is what Carniolans look like

As you see in picture, abdomen has clear bands.

 

[B+.]

As you see in picture, abdomen has clear bands.

According to Prof Ruttner; the abdomen can be "ohne" - without spots, "ecke" - corner spots, "1R" - where side spots join to become a brown ring, or "2R" - where a second ring appears. This is only one of the morphological signs though. The point is that they should appear uniform.

 

[Finman]

.
I had 10 years Carniolans. Their appearance and behaviour are impossible to mix with black bees. But mongrels may be what ever.

After that I have got Carniolan blood every year to my yard. This year I have quite much Carniolan blood and I have hybrid queens.

Black bee genepool vanished from my district about 25 y ago, when varroa arrived.

 

[Tremyfro]

Now I wonder if you had Carniolians?... because what you are describing fits my experience of our Native Black bee to a T!

I suspect that many inexperienced beekeepers would confuse the types
Big Yellow = Buskfast or Italians
Black = Carniolians*

* being unaware of the endemic black bee because everyone and his uncle knows it was wiped out by Acarine disease some time ago.

Amm I being pedantic... or has the drive down from London caused me to become jaded due to the cretinous attitude and inexperience of todays average arrogant young male motorists!
... there I was sitting at a comfortable 55 in the M4 fast lane and every BMW and AUDI in creation had to drive right up my exhaust... flash lights and swerve abusively.... and 55 is absolutely flat out on My motability scooter!!!

Yeghes da

Had visions of you perambulating along the road...with a pile of irate drivers in fast cars piling up behind you!
I bought my bees from a well known apiary...so have no reason to doubt their breed. When I see other peoples bees...I wonder how they can carry on! I think it is really important to have a good introduction to beekeeping. Being stung and being chased really puts you off!

 

[Michael Palmer]

Buckfasts can also be dark, and other sub species as well as Italians can also be yellow.

Do you favor one color over the other?