Beginner's incompetence! Any suggestions?

[HelenX]

Firstly, a big thank you to everyone who has helped me in my first season - that's all of you - I read the forum most days and learn a lot! Thank you esepcially to all who helped and commented with my earlier posts. To update them:
- the swarm that was in a heap in a brood box is still breeding there, but is putting stores in the super I added on RAB's suggestion, so hopefully they will be in the super by the end of winter, ready to move up again into a brood box.
- The nucs I was so unhappy with when they arrived:
- one has done brilliantly - quiet bees, now on brood and a half
- the other has made slower progress but is OK - nastiest temper I have met yet - followers every time and plenty of stings - so much for the wonderful Buckfast queen!

I have five hives I am happy with, other than the temper.

Today's question - highly embarrassing as I seem to have made a complete pig's ear of one hive, and really need some suggestions about what to do for the rest of the season. This is the story:

Tues 16th August - hive very full - added a drawn super to make them into brood and a half.

Thurs 25th Aug - United them (paper method) by adding a Q- hive on top. Some sealed brood in BB, most of the bees in two supers I had returned for cleaning, so I put the lot on top of the good hive, and also left a large feeder on top as there was not much in the supers, and almost no stores in the BB

Tues 30 August - Bees seemed happily united, and I decided to start getting them down into fewer boxes, so I had, from the top:
Feeder
Super to finish cleaning
Empty super
CB
BB from "Q-" hive, because there was still a little capped brood in it
Queen Excluder
Brood and a half at the bottom

Fri 2 Sept - found that the syrup from the feeder had been stored in the super I thought they would empty, above the empty super and CB. I removed the feeder and did nothing else.

Tues 6th September - found there was uncapped brood in the BB above the Queen Excluder, so it wasn't as queenless as I had thought - but they all seemed happy co-existing. Checked the "real" brood boxes - not only young brood in the BB, but also in the brood super - so it wasn't that the queen had just moved through the excluder.
Decided to take a risk about 2 queens, and rearranged all the brood into the bottom box, and arranged it all:
Old brood box, now just with a few stores but mostly empty comb + bees
clearer board
super of stores
queen excluder
brood and a half

Thurs 8th Sept - top brood box had only part cleared, and the rest of the hive was very full, with comb built under the clearer. Replaced clearer with CB and empty super to encourage them to move down and take any last stores with them

Today - Found the top BB and the otherwise empty super box full of bees, as is the rest. Have added a super of foundation to give them more space.

The pile is now:
Brood box, no brood, nearly empty of stores, but full of bees
Empty super, walls and CB below crowded with bees
Super of foundation (just added)
Super of stores
Queen excluded
Brood and a half - many bees, much brood, few stores

So the long and short of my story is that I now have an enormous pile of boxes, very crowded with bees, and I need to find the best way of leaving them for winter. I would like to get back to brood and a half, probably with the super of stores from syrup underneath.

Is this the right aim?
Is there a way of getting there?

Sorry this is such a long post, and hope it makes sense! All suggestions welcome!


Helen

 

[Gardenbees]

Getting the "heap" in the right order can be a very trying process, as the bees always have their own ideas about where they want everything to go. They also get more urgent - and opinionated - as it gets colder and the preparation for winter becomes more urgent. This won't improve their temper. I'm in a similar situation now with a recently-united hive.

As it gets colder the number of bees will dwindle considerably, but that's unlikely to start until nearer the end of the month (given your location). You might therefore find that the problem eases a bit as the month goes on. They will tend to move up into the "target" brood box. At the moment, if they're still producing bees, they won't want to let go of the brood in the bottom box... but if the "spare" brood box is really more or less empty of brood and bees, I'd wait until a nice, sunny day with lots of bees out foraging, and quietly remove it, gently but firmly shaking the inhabitants onto the top bars of the desired box. A firm shake dislodges them without upsetting them too much, and you can carry each empty brood frame away as you shake it clear, until you have an empty bottom box. Do the same with any superfluous supers. Move them well away, then go back and re-stack the brood and a half arrangement. Then deal with the empty brood and super frames - melt down the wax if it's old, or keep it if it's fresh and worth saving (although I wouldn't personally keep any older brood comb).

Any useful stores or honey which are in the "wrong" box for your purposes can be placed well above the main bb with one or even two clearer boards in between - enough to make the bees feel that it's not really part of the hive. They will crawl through and "rob" the spare honey, storing it down below. Don't therefore give them an empty super between any stores, feed or leftover honey in supers, because they'll simply use it to put stores in and you'll still have a problem with boxes in the wrong order. The food needs to start going into the brood box (or boxes) that they'll be in over winter.

Bees don't like having their homes shuffled about and opened up, especially brood boxes. They can get very annoyed. If you're worried about their temper, you can sometimes improve the situation by using a cover cloth (jute sacking is good) to keep the bb covered whilst you're moving it about with the lid off. Also, make a special effort with suit, rubber gloves etc. or your nerves will make the whole process more complicated and clumsy. If this makes you work more slowly that's probably no bad thing. A confident, thickly-suited beek is a more relaxed beek!

PS - don't worry if it looks as if the boxes are all crammed with bees. They're deceptive, especially when agitated, and most colonies will fit into a brood and a half. Just keep an eye on their food levels: too much, and they won't be able to breed enough bees for winter, too little forage and the two combined colonies will empty their stores and get hungry very quickly.

 

[tonybloke]

very good post, GB

 

[enrico]

This is what I would do
First of all take the super of foundation away again, useless.
Take away the QE Leave with brood and a half and super (Brood and two halves!!!)
Put empty super on top with no frames and shake all the bees from the remaining box's into empty super like you would if you were hiving a swarm. Remove these shaken box's immediately. Put crown boars under empty super and feed.
A word of caution to you and all newbees. Time and time again we hear that you think your hive is queenless. Trust me 90 per cent of the time you are wrong! Just be patient. You can't expect her not to rest some times and there are all sorts of things that can put her of lay for maybe weeks. Always try test framing before uniting!
Despite that well done Helen, you have really tried to get it right and that shows guts and promise for the future.
E

 

[HelenX]

Thank you both very much for the advice and encouragement - I will go and have another 'sort out' when the weather is kind.

H

 

[Gardenbees]

Despite that well done Helen, you have really tried to get it right and that shows guts and promise for the future.
E

'ear 'ear!

also I forgot the bit about queens: they sometimes aren't as obvious as they're supposed to be!

 

[drstitson]

QEs can be faulty!!!!

 

[itma]

Ummm.
That is one seriously tall tower.

The weather may not "be kind".
With a forecast of strong winds in the next couple of days, I do hope that everything is well anchored down, and on firm foundations.
It'd be a shame to have the situation 'taken out of your hands' ...

 

[HelenX]

Thank you - they are in the sheltered garden tucked in the corner of two high hedges, so they shouldn't get too much wind.

Hopefully I can reduce the height a bit today!
H

 

[HelenX]

Sorted!

Have just spent an interesting hour or so, and the bees are now in a brood box and two supers, as per Enrico's suggestion, as the brood box I put all the brood in last week was at the bottom.

I used GB's advice about taking each frame away as I emptied it - I wouldn't have thought of it, and it really helped.

Weather was not too bad - 23 degrees but breezy - I got very hot in long trousers, long sleeves, and my suit - but they didn't get me!

Thanks again for the help,
Helen

 

[enrico]

Well done helen x
e