beevital hive clean

[shazzer]

I am a newbee.

Having my shiny new hive already and waiting for my NUC I am keen to be on top of the Varroa thing right from the start and try and keep things hygienic as best I can for my bees.

There are so many treatments I have been trying to educate myself with, that it is difficult to make a decision. All these acids, vaping etc makes me worried I might over do it and cause more harm, until I gain more experience.

My intention has been to try and get a NUC from a reputable local Beek who is supplying relatively hygienic bees (varroa mite free) and use a simple control measure for Varroa that I am not likely to overdo or make a mistake with.

So Beevital seems an attractive and easy product for me to use from the start so the Varroa does not get a good foothold on my new bees and hive. Followed by some Apiguard later in the year. Obviously if it appears I am getting infested then I will have to go for something more aggressive.

Are all UK bees and brood frames carrying some Varroa mites?
Is it just a case of keeping the mites to a minimum?
Is it possible to be completely Varroa free?
We are in Cornwall and looking to keep local Cornish Bees.

Lots of questions from a Newbee thank you for your patience.

 

[masterBK]

How do you know they are relatively hygienic (and what does that mean?) and Varroa free ? Is that what the potential seller claims? Get a third party to check them for Varroa by doing sugar roll sample. The only area I know where bees are Varroa free is the Isle of Man and there has been recent worries that Varroa may have been brought into the Island.
I suggest you stick to NBU suggestions for Varroa control (and Bee vital is not one of them) until you gain more experience and are prepared to experiment and gamble with other methods of Varroa control. Control is all about keeping Varroa numbers below threshold levels so that damage to the colony is minimal. Elimination with all current methods has not been demonstrated

 

[shazzer]

How do you know they are relatively hygienic (and what does that mean?) and Varroa free ? Is that what the potential seller claims? Get a third party to check them for Varroa by doing sugar roll sample. The only area I know where bees are Varroa free is the Isle of Man and there has been recent worries that Varroa may have been brought into the Island.
I suggest you stick to NBU suggestions for Varroa control (and Bee vital is not one of them) until you gain more experience and are prepared to experiment and gamble with other methods of Varroa control. Control is all about keeping Varroa numbers below threshold levels so that damage to the colony is minimal. Elimination with all current methods has not been demonstrated

I don't know if they are relatively hygienic I meant free of mites and beetles.
The seller has made no claims but seems professional in his approach.

I will ask around for a third party to help. Had to google NBU will have a good read and see what they recommend.

Thank you

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

So Beevital seems an attractive and easy product for me to use from the start so the Varroa does not get a good foothold on my new bees and hive. .

Expensive snake oil basically - it;'s just your bog standard Oxalic acid syrup suspension with a few bits of fairy dust added to please the holistic lot.
The recommended method of treatment is three doses (seven days apart) in September so a little more intrusive than Apiguard anyway. and works in exactly the same way as plain OA trickle solution but with a dash of lemon juice for flavour.
Save your money and buy some devent varroa treatments.

I'd take the hygienic varroa free label with a pinch of salt as well. Get your nuc built up nice and strongly then treat with apiguard in the autumn. If the drop is heavy and you feel the need - OA trickling midwinter (unless you know someone with a vaporiser)

 

[B+.]

snake oil with a few bits of fairy dust

I love the description JBM....are you sure you don't work in their marketing department?

 

[Nopants]

I used to use Hive clean, in my experience it made no real difference. I dont use it now. Use Oxalyic acid in December and Apiguard in the summer. I also have switched from using open mesh floors to solid floors as im using a wbc hive now.I think the treatments work a lot better with solid floors. Ok you cant monitor mite drop properly but if the bees look healthier and are building up faster in the spring than the mites life cycle its win win. I think again its down to the bee genetics and at how well they cope with varoa with house keeping ect

 

[Dr J.Bell]

Incase anyone actually wants to know what is in Hive Clean, it contains the following (in no particular order)

Oxalic Acid

Sucrose (sugar)

Small amount <0.5% Formic Acid

Citric Acid (mainly used as a kind of preservative and buffer)

Propolois (hydrolyzed)

And then the magic ingredient....Essential oils
Actually the essential oils are Thymol and Carvacrol.

As it is a registered trade mark i am unable to disclose to amounts, the information on the ingredients came from GC/MS analysis of a sample.

I found an old PDF on my laptop from a while back with advice on different cleaning methods of equipment and old hives etc.

Purely a personal opinion but I have seen very good results of cleaning older wooden hives using a warm solution of washing soda (sodium carbonate!), its cheap and reasonably effective for most things, i recommend gloves when using any chemical for cleaning.

We have also had very good results using Sodium Hydroxide (often sold as drain opener), i am reluctant to recommend its general use because of its highly caustic nature. However used carefully it is extremely good for cleaning secondhand all wooden hives. If this is used then please do use appropriate safety equipment like gloves and particularly eye protection.

You may read that one of the downsides to Sodium Hydroxide is the disposal of it, as stated above it is often sold as a drain opener. However a better way (environmentally) is to leave it in a open bucket or other container until it oxidizes, you want to speed this up simply bubble air from an aquarium air pump into it, Sodium Hydroxide eventually oxidizes into washing soda (sodium Carbonate). Please do not use hot solutions of sodium hydroxide, it can be an extremely caustic and therefore dangerous chemical.
Eye protection is an absolute must, Sodium Hydroxide in the eyes causes permanent damage extremely quickly.

Sorry for the health and safety warnings but it would be remiss of me not to point this out.

I hope the PDF is of use to someone.

 

[Vortex]

I've used Hive clean for the last 2 seasons but I only use it early to mid season as a fast knockdown mechanism for varroa, and use Apilife-Var in August as my main treatment.

As a knockdown mechanism, treating the brood nest only over 2 weeks, I have found it works without issue. Basically I use the appearance of DWV as a marker and once it appears treat that week and the following week. By week 3 no more DWV ( or a level that is difficult to identify amongst the multitude).

I find it also works in controlling difficult hives where smoking doesn't.

Several other members of my association use it in a similar manner and have found that when used, not as the primary varroa treatment it is effective.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

But it's basically just flavoured oxalic acid syrup - why not save your money and use bog standard OA, that's the active ingredient anyway.

 

[Dr J.Bell]

But it's basically just flavoured oxalic acid syrup - why not save your money and use bog standard OA, that's the active ingredient anyway.

The main reason would be the inclusion of Thymol with Carvacrol, together these are proven powerful antimicrobial's and effective against some virus.
Oxalic acid alone dosnt have anti viral properties, i would think the other advantage would be in the fluidity of the liquid being able to penetrate cracks and crevices other treatments may miss.

For full disclosure I have no direct or indirect connection with the product, nor have i ever worked for any company connected with the product!

Having said all that, if anyone is into making there own essential oils (for soap etc) and has basic steam distillation equipment, i may well post a recipe that kills just about everything safely!

 

[Dr J.Bell]

I am surprised given the level of mistrust to most products and the opinion they are expensive (to be honest they are), i am at a loss why more people dont actually make there own treatments? the ingredients are cheap and easy to come by, you also have the advantage of being able to SLIGHTLY increase the amount and combination of essential oils to prevent resistance.

Both Oxalic acid and Thymol/Carvocrol treatments originally game from a hobbyist experimenting with natural products, little has changed in nearly 100 years formulation wise.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Vortex was talkjing about knocking down varoa - not some esoteric health tonic, plain unflavoured OA would have done the same trick.

 

[B+.]

i am at a loss why more people dont actually make there own treatments?

Just think of the fun and games you'd have explaining to the VMD what you had used...then, if you still thought it was a good idea, you could tackle the health officer and possibly even trading standards if your honey became tainted with any of it.

 

[Dr J.Bell]

Just think of the fun and games you'd have explaining to the VMD what you had used...then, if you still thought it was a good idea, you could tackle the health officer and possibly even trading standards if your honey became tainted with any of it.

If you sell honey then that is a different animal altogether, however there is no legal reason you cannot buy Oxalic acid and mix with the correct amount of Thymol and carvacrol. The detectable amounts would be the same, companies dont buy pharma grade chemicals for these treatments, the Thymol and carvacrol often comes from small scale oil producers. In other words you have as much access to the chemicals in they use and they do. The one and only difference being they buy it in bulk.

My wife uses a slightly different essential oil mix, admittedly for my own personal reasons i run her honey and wax through a GC/MS, she could legally sell her honey at the gate no problem at all. However selling honey is not what i had in mind when writing this, my point was more to do with disease control for those that are struggling to get things under control, call it a last resort if you wish.

The trading standards have a list of permissible amounts of various 'taints' allowed, used sensibly you would not be breaking any law.

I wasnt aware so many small producers actually sold honey, i can understand now why so many would not want a license system. I see no use in going into the grey economy side of things, but i stand by what i wrote on the license proposals being put forward. A license system along the lines I discussed would not increase your risk of being caught for tax evasion, if your under the limit to pay tax then this isnt a problem anyway.

The more i think about what she spends on the hobby and the amount she gets back, I am extremely tempted to declare her as a business and offset the loss against my tax!! But this is a choice for each person, i am no more interested in people selling few jars of honey than i am interested in those selling things on ebay and making a living. If you can make some cash and get away with it, then more power to you, what i do care about is bio security and accountability, regardless of the nonsense being spouted about pollinators (BEES in particular) not being in decline does concern me.

Best wishes Dr J Bell

 

[Dr J.Bell]

I don't know if they are relatively hygienic I meant free of mites and beetles.
The seller has made no claims but seems professional in his approach.

I will ask around for a third party to help. Had to google NBU will have a good read and see what they recommend.

Thank you

My last post was in Okehampton in Devon, I still have connections down there and visit regularly, I will send you a pm in the near future. I would be really pleased to keep in contact and hear how your Bees do, I have a soft spot for the Cornish Bee. Fortunately the area I was based isnt far from Bude, besides Cornwall isnt that far from England anyway

 

[B+.]

what i do care about is bio security and accountability, regardless of the nonsense being spouted about pollinators (BEES in particular) not being in decline does concern me.

It would be a simple matter to add the NBU identification number to honey labels but, if APHA aren't pushing for it, they obviously don't see it as a problem.

 

[Plenty of honey]

Expensive snake oil basically - it;'s just your bog standard Oxalic acid syrup suspension with a few bits of fairy dust added to please the holistic lot.
)

Genius!!

 

[Dr J.Bell]

It would be a simple matter to add the NBU identification number to honey labels but, if APHA aren't pushing for it, they obviously don't see it as a problem.

I dont think i would want to see honey labeled, for identification. At the moment my greater concern would be to license keepers and get a better picture of the number of Hives and the locations, I am also in favor of 21 day standstill procedures. At least in doing that more information could be passed to keepers who may not be aware of a problem in an area close to them, or more importantly in an area they are considering moving a hive to.

Rules of labels are the domain of trading standards, i see little to be gained from it, but again my focus is how to protect Bees and Bee keepers rather than find out who sold unfit honey. As shocking as that may sound, it is not my job to look after human health, there are plenty of well paid people who already do that

 

[wessexmario]

I wasn't aware so many small producers actually sold honey, i can understand now why so many would not want a license system. I see no use in going into the grey economy side of things, but i stand by what i wrote on the license proposals being put forward.

I think you'd be much better placed by referring to what you're proposing as a "registration" rather than as a "licence".

The latter has connotations of requiring official permission and payment, which gives a negative first impression, whereas "registration" meaning identifying how many and where colonies are, is what I believe you're actually trying to achieve.

As I expect you know, we already have a "registration system" in Beebase, so is what you're proposing really that it ought to be mandatory rather than voluntary?
It would be a simple but significant step to make that change.

 

[MuswellMetro]

If you sell honey then that is a different animal altogether, however there is no legal reason you cannot buy Oxalic acid and mix with the correct amount of Thymol and carvacrol. The detectable amounts would be the same, companies dont buy pharma grade chemicals for these treatments, the Thymol and carvacrol often comes from small scale oil producers. In other words you have as much access to the chemicals in they use and they do. The one and only difference being they buy it in bulk.

My wife uses a slightly different essential oil mix, admittedly for my own personal reasons i run her honey and wax through a GC/MS, she could legally sell her honey at the gate no problem at all. However selling honey is not what i had in mind when writing this, my point was more to do with disease control for those that are struggling to get things under control, call it a last resort if you wish.

The trading standards have a list of permissible amounts of various 'taints' allowed, used sensibly you would not be breaking any law.

I wasnt aware so many small producers actually sold honey, i can understand now why so many would not want a license system. I see no use in going into the grey economy side of things, but i stand by what i wrote on the license proposals being put forward. A license system along the lines I discussed would not increase your risk of being caught for tax evasion, if your under the limit to pay tax then this isnt a problem anyway.

The more i think about what she spends on the hobby and the amount she gets back, I am extremely tempted to declare her as a business and offset the loss against my tax!! But this is a choice for each person, i am no more interested in people selling few jars of honey than i am interested in those selling things on ebay and making a living. If you can make some cash and get away with it, then more power to you, what i do care about is bio security and accountability, regardless of the nonsense being spouted about pollinators (BEES in particular) not being in decline does concern me.

Best wishes Dr J Bell

so since new regualtion in April 2016 you as a researcher may buy oxalic dihydrate crystal but not us as individuals unless you have a licence see https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ome-users-of-poisons-and-explosive-precursors and what you are advising would invalidate your product insurance from the BBKA

hobbyist beekeepers even with two hives are going to get between 40 to 100lbs of honey (perhaps even more in a good year) which is more than enough for home consumption Your view on Tax is a total red herring as there are permitted limits for sale by hobbyists (being revised upwards from 2017)