Bees Can't Eat Kind Words

[oliver90owner]

There are huge areas of monocrops which, while they may provide a huge honey potential for three weeks of the season, are utterly useless for most of the rest of the year. Bees will forage on any available plants, if appropriate, not just flowers. I find urban bees are often better off than migrated bees on average (for health and survival), than migrated bees where the honey is removed at each crop site.

These bee base figures are, I feel, either often out of date or inaccurate. Informing new and other beeks that there may be a problem is one thing; actually putting a precise figure on it is rather less useful. Autumn feeding with sugar syrup has likely not been included in any crop availability, yet may represent the difference between winter survival or loss?

 

[Hivemaker.]

I would be surprised if migratory beekeeping would skew the national Beebase data to the extent that the Hive Density data was unrepresentative of the reality on the ground.

So how do you find out the density of hives brought the the heather moors, and exactly where they are, hundreds or maybe even thousands, mostly from far away places.

 

[sipa]

Lets also not forget that Beebase is hardly a true representation of colony numbers. Many, many beekeepers are not, nor will ever be registered unless it becomes mandatory, which incidentally I think it should.


I applaud your efforts in raising awareness of the need to provide adequate forage / nourishment, but your system does lack credibility given the way your weightings are constructed.

A system based upon such an ethereal foundation will only flourish amongst the uninitiated.

You should also consider the contribution that can be made by supplementary or complementary feeding of syrup and protein.

 

[djg]

There are huge areas of monocrops which, while they may provide a huge honey potential for three weeks of the season, are utterly useless for most of the rest of the year. Bees will forage on any available plants, if appropriate, not just flowers. I find urban bees are often better off than migrated bees on average (for health and survival), than migrated bees where the honey is removed at each crop site.

These bee base figures are, I feel, either often out of date or inaccurate. Informing new and other beeks that there may be a problem is one thing; actually putting a precise figure on it is rather less useful. Autumn feeding with sugar syrup has likely not been included in any crop availability, yet may represent the difference between winter survival or loss?

Hi oliver90owner,

Your comment on monocrops is spot on. It is represented in Question 5 of the website’s 10-factor spreadsheet, as “All-year round Forage”. (Question 5 is a combination of 2 factors from the full 17-factor version : “Seasonality of Forage” and “Duration of Forage” which both tied amongst country beekeepers as the most important factor, so it has a high weighting in the final score).

I accept that Beebase may be less than perfect, and I would be grateful for any suggestions for an information resource on apiary density which is more accurate than Beebase.

Your observation that Feeding is not included in the AFI is correct. Certainly, putting on autumn feed is an intervention for the beekeeper to consider, if stores are light or treatments required. But it is outside the remit of the AFI, which is designed to address the primary forage potential of a site.

Thank you for your contributions to this discussion.

 

[djg]

Lets also not forget that Beebase is hardly a true representation of colony numbers. Many, many beekeepers are not, nor will ever be registered unless it becomes mandatory, which incidentally I think it should.


I applaud your efforts in raising awareness of the need to provide adequate forage / nourishment, but your system does lack credibility given the way your weightings are constructed.

A system based upon such an ethereal foundation will only flourish amongst the uninitiated.

You should also consider the contribution that can be made by supplementary or complementary feeding of syrup and protein.

Hi sipa

Thanks for your further comments

I genuinely don’t understand your comment about lack of credibility.

The Apis Forage Index identifies the key forage variables, introduces a weighting factor from beekeepers with many hundred years of combined experience and asks people to input their own data on a simple, free-to-air, on-line resource.

Sure, it’s not complex. But simplicity is a virtue in my book. And those whom you call “the uninitiated” are, after all, the people most likely to benefit from the forage awareness which the AFI provides.

 

[djg]

So how do you find out the density of hives brought the the heather moors, and exactly where they are, hundreds or maybe even thousands, mostly from far away places.

Hi Hivemaker,

Thanks for "bringing the heather to the thread"

I'm guessing that if you're taking the bees to a source of forage, like heather, you wouldn't need the Apis Forage Index, since you have already identified an area of prolific forage availability to your own satisfaction. Great !

For the large majority of existing and potential beekeepers, however, apiaries are static. Like an Electoral Roll, Beebase is bound to be imperfect, but until anyone can produce a better hive density information resource, I'll stick with it.

Let me be clear: the AFI is designed to be simple tool to raise forage awareness - not to be the ultimate authority on every beehive in the U.K.

 

[Thymallus]

Hi Thymallus,

Thanks for your comment.

I would be surprised if migratory beekeeping would skew the national Beebase data

I was just pointing out that there is much more migratory beekeeping going on than you seemed to be aware of. You appeared to think heather was the only crop bees were moved to.
Couldn't give a damn about hive densities....unless it's on MY bit of the moors

 

[Finman]

Hi Finman



I fully agree that pasture evaluation is difficult. That is why the AFI provides a simple template, asking 10 questions, each with only 3 .

You do not understand the issue or the problem.

Evaluation is difficult and no AFI will help you in that problem.
And AFI will not tell to you, where are better pastures. Only way is to jump into car and search them.

Simple note table does not make you wiser.

If the hive density is too big, only way is to carry hives somewhere else.
That I did since 1966 and I did it first with bicycle and later with moped.

Why bicycle... Because I did not have a car. So simple.

 

[Finman]

.
How I determine my apiary site?

Vast area some main plant: Raspberry, ****, fireweed
Soil: Not poor, not easy to dry up,
Fresh soil, nutritions, many plants among main nectar plants
When one flower stops, what blooms then

How many hives place stands during minimum flow

Not windy area. It is better if main plant has wind protection

How much I see allready bees in flowers... I prefer not at all.

Distances to blooming areas.
Different pastures - different aromas

Do not put all eggs into same basket

Good access with car. Hives easy to drop from car to the site.
Easy to load full honey boxes.

Friendly attitude of land owner

If I see or hear that field is biodynamic, ... No thanks. Blooming will be short and poor.

Do not trust on good luck. Some are better and some worse places. They are not equal.

 

[Finman]

.
One more...

If the distance is too long from my existing apiary to foraging area, I must move hives away that bees do not waste their energy and yield to travelling.

If **** field is 1 km far away, bees will loose 50% of their yield for distance.

.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

djg

On the principle of "try anything once", I downloaded the Starter version and Instructions and had a go at seeing what my Forage Index was.

The result was 77%, which was stated to be "positive". As encouraging as this might seem to be, I was left with doubts in my mind. The first question asked me to assess as "unfavourable", "neutral" or "favourable" the density of local apiaries. The NBU says there are 181 apiaries within a 10km radius of mine. The problem was that I did not know the answer to that question - is 181 a high or low number - is it "unfavourable", "neutral" or "favourable"? Equally, questions 3 and 4 relating to quality and quantity of local forage are very subjective.

Might I suggest that the instructions be enhanced to offer guidance as to how these assessments are carried out. For instance, you might say > 500 apiaries is unfavourable and < 100 is favourable but this guidance would need the help of your expert beekeepers. Equally some guidance on how a beginner can assess the quality and quantity of local forage would be helpful.

How much does the Professional Version cost and does it have different (better) instructions?

CVB

 

[Hivemaker.]

How much does the Professional Version cost and does it have different (better) instructions?

Everything on the website should be free, if not, this thread will be disappearing soon.

 

[Finman]

djg



Might I suggest that the instructions be enhanced to offer guidance as to how these assessments are carried out. For instance, you might say > 500 apiaries is unfavourable and < 100 is favourable but ...

How much does the Professional Version cost and does it have different (better) instructions?

CVB

10 hive owner gives advices to 100 apiary owner, how to find pastures!

... Who needs to change medication... Further more, advices must be free

.S.O.S

 

[Finman]

M

djg

. The NBU says there are 181 apiaries within a 10km radius of mine.


CVB

180 apiaries, 2 hives or 10 hives/apiary. Makes no sense. How big hives? 5 or 2 boxes?

I use evaluation. "how many bees on square metre or inside 10 m x 10 metre.

I have counted bumble bees on red clover field. There were 2 bumbles on radius of 10 metres, but next week when fireweed stopped blooming, clover field had 5 bumbles /m2.
6 hectare field / 60 000 m2 x 5 is 300 000 bumblebees on same field. IT is about 5-10 beehives

If I take 10 km radius from my summer cottage, I know all possible good pastures on area.

i know that here are 60-70 beehives inside this area.

Me and my neighbour have 60 hives and we have distance of 0,6 km.
One beekeeper is 5 km away.

Our 60 hives are too much and so I move my all hives from my cottage yard.

When I move 5 km, I may get 80- 150 kg honey from my hives. In cottage yard I get 30 kg/hive.

I just mean that 10 km radius tells nothing about pastures or about hive locations.

Effective foraging distance is 1-1,5 km. But if **** field is 2-3 km far away, bees love to fly to the field, but loose most of yield as flying fuel.

If we take 20 x 20 km square, it is a huge area, but it depends on landscape, how much it has proper pastures. I must take off cultivated fields except ****. Then I take off dry and dense forests. Only fresh moist Wood cutting areas are proper. I can tell to you all good or bad pasture areas around me my 35 years experience. But, However, the truth of passed by summer surprises me year after year.





.

 

[djg]

djg

On the principle of "try anything once", I downloaded the Starter version and Instructions and had a go at seeing what my Forage Index was.

The result was 77%, which was stated to be "positive". As encouraging as this might seem to be, I was left with doubts in my mind. The first question asked me to assess as "unfavourable", "neutral" or "favourable" the density of local apiaries. The NBU says there are 181 apiaries within a 10km radius of mine. The problem was that I did not know the answer to that question - is 181 a high or low number - is it "unfavourable", "neutral" or "favourable"? Equally, questions 3 and 4 relating to quality and quantity of local forage are very subjective.

Might I suggest that the instructions be enhanced to offer guidance as to how these assessments are carried out. For instance, you might say > 500 apiaries is unfavourable and < 100 is favourable but this guidance would need the help of your expert beekeepers. Equally some guidance on how a beginner can assess the quality and quantity of local forage would be helpful.

How much does the Professional Version cost and does it have different (better) instructions?

CVB

Hi charlievictorbravo,

I’m encouraged that people are trying the AFI and asking questions. Asking the right questions is the necessary prelude to getting the right answers.

I take your point about assessing your hive density data and I’ll consider how to improve the guidance for the 3 possible answers, given that I am not aware of a greater density than my 641 apiaries in a 10km radius and that zero is the lowest possible number. Somewhere in the middle would represent a mean number and is close to the national average according to the NBU, so I would use that mid-point to decide the "unfavourable", "neutral" or "favourable" input to apiary density question.

The quality/quantity of local forage questions are vital. They were the most important factors for my expert country beekeepers. But the simple reality is that if people do not know the answer to those questions in terms of the three broad categories of AFI, then they should certainly find out before they start installing beehives!

Again, the AFI succeeds in its goal if it encourages people to ask the right questions. My advice would be to ask local farmers, park-keepers, beekeeping associations, allotment holders – it really all depends on your area.

The AFI Professional version is not offered for sale. It is part of a larger viability report to any prospective beekeeper (such as the one silent-auctioned for the Bees For Development charity at the Bee Garden Party last summer) and I input the data from my own research and observations from a site survey into a far more detailed spreadsheet.

Thank you very much for your interest.

 

[djg]

M

180 apiaries, 2 hives or 10 hives/apiary. Makes no sense. How big hives? 5 or 2 boxes?

I use evaluation. "how many bees on square metre or inside 10 m x 10 metre.

I have counted bumble bees on red clover field. There were 2 bumbles on radius of 10 metres, but next week when fireweed stopped blooming, clover field had 5 bumbles /m2.
6 hectare field / 60 000 m2 x 5 is 300 000 bumblebees on same field. IT is about 5-10 beehives

If I take 10 km radius from my summer cottage, I know all possible good pastures on area.

i know that here are 60-70 beehives inside this area.

Me and my neighbour have 60 hives and we have distance of 0,6 km.
One beekeeper is 5 km away.

Our 60 hives are too much and so I move my all hives from my cottage yard.

When I move 5 km, I may get 80- 150 kg honey from my hives. In cottage yard I get 30 kg/hive.

I just mean that 10 km radius tells nothing about pastures or about hive locations.

Effective foraging distance is 1-1,5 km. But if **** field is 2-3 km far away, bees love to fly to the field, but loose most of yield as flying fuel.

If we take 20 x 20 km square, it is a huge area, but it depends on landscape, how much it has proper pastures. I must take off cultivated fields except ****. Then I take off dry and dense forests. Only fresh moist Wood cutting areas are proper. I can tell to you all good or bad pasture areas around me my 35 years experience. But, However, the truth of passed by summer surprises me year after year.





.

Hi Finman,

I acknowledge that your own options on siting hives for forage are different from most UK beekeepers. As usual, your observations are very valuable in that context.

Most prospective beekeepers I meet in the UK have already decided on a site for the bees. That is part of the problem. In towns, people have few options for siting hives and some are determined to “have bees” and do so regardless of the forage conditions. I would also observe that my country neighbours’ yields have declined dramatically as oilseed **** planting in adjacent fields has declined in the light of the neonicotinoid ban, changing the local forage profile. By raising forage awareness, the AFI is designed to discourage reckless beekeeping.

Essentially, the AFI does little more than organize the forage information which you so eloquently express on multiple posts and 57 lines and put it into an accessible, on-line format. Remember, the AFI result is determined by the user’s own data inputs, with a weighting adjustment from experienced UK beekeepers. That may not be much use for a veteran beekeeper in Finland – but it’s optional: if you know better, you are free to ignore it, with my blessing.

But I am at a loss to see how the AFI asking 10 pertinent questions about forage for bees is a negative thing for beekeeping, as your comments seem to suggest.

 

[psafloyd]

There are some 3,225 beehives in a 10 kilometre radius around our Bermondsey Street apiary, according to the National Bee Unit. That many hives requires 8,000 tonnes of nectar and 1,600 tonnes of pollen, each year, just to survive. That’s the equivalent of 60 refuse truckfulls of nectar and 12 of pollen. That’s a big ask in an intensely urban environment.[/U]

I wonder how many are still viable. How many might have been registered on BeeBase, but didn't make it through winter but were not de-registered by the beekeeper/association (if they have one)?

 

[djg]

I wonder how many are still viable. How many might have been registered on BeeBase, but didn't make it through winter but were not de-registered by the beekeeper/association (if they have one)?

psafloyd,

Yes, indeed. Thanks for your thoughtful question. Interesting that the Beebase number of 641 apiaries which I used in last week’s calculation was lower than the 645 which the study was originally based on (645 apiaries x national average of 4 hives/apiary x 125% - to reflect 25% of beekeepers assumed not to register = 3,225 hives). At least that demonstrates that the Beebase number can decrease! But, yes, despite this, it may be that the 641 London apiary/ 3225 hives number in a 10km radius around my apiary is overstated for the reason you propose.

But even if it is, it hardly changes the conclusion. The BBKA gives a 15% loss ratio for the South East over the 2013-14 winter, the highest amongst a 9.6% loss rate nationwide. If we apply the South East 15% overstatement to my 641, the number would still be 545. Applying a 9.6% overstatement to the national average of, say, 350 would come down to 316. So my apiary would be 72%, not 83%, above the national average density. A somewhat lower, but still significant gap.

While we’re at it, let me introduce another potential inaccuracy: it is generally assumed that 25% of beekeepers do not register with Beebase/National Bee Unit. It has been suggested to me that this % is likely to be much higher in London, where a significant section of the population may not want to be visible to government agencies (for immigration, tax, overcrowding, food standards inspection etc reasons). So that 641 number of registered apiaries may also be artificially understated relative to the number of active apiaries.

But it’s the relativity which counts. If the average number is, say, 350, then 641 is clearly high (my London number) and 45 is clearly low (my Suffolk number). And I think that it is worth repeating that Beebase is the best available national data for hive density and is valid in the three broad terminology choices (Favourable, Neutral, Unfavourable) used for the Apis Forage Index.