BBKA Epipen Policy

[MandF]

numerous on government institutions and other such as

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...46hNIB&sig=AHIEtbTplSTjngYhlMkiS9Q8CLfmo9Ti0Q

That's it from me.

BOL but keep away from me!

Those documents arent even legally binding (which is precisely what you are saying is the risk) even if you stabbed the mayor in the heart with the cleaner's epipen. What you have highlighted is more health and safety rubbish.

I might expect this argument on an unrelated forum, but on a beekeeping forum where we are all aware of the dangers of anaphylaxis and the availability of epipens?!

 

[BBG]

Those documents arent even legally binding

HSE aren't legally binding?

(which is precisely what you are saying is the risk)

No, I am not saying that is the risk, it's a risk, but in dealing with a situation a trained medical person is expected to follow guidance and adhere to the rules. An unskilled person would do what they could and that might include injecting with an epipen. Would they think about being sued - of course not.

Someone with training is sometimes a loose cannon hence guidance and the threat of legal action to prompt them into behaving correctly. This, due to the slovenly attitudes sometimes found in health professionals'. Medical negligence is big business and an easy target due to poor conduct among these people.

even if you stabbed the mayor in the heart with the cleaner's epipen.

????

What you have highlighted is more health and safety rubbish.

Your slip is showing for sure now.

I might expect this argument on an unrelated forum, but on a beekeeping forum where we are all aware of the dangers of anaphylaxis and the availability of epipens?!

All aware? Doubtful, but I have been through a very bad episode of shock.

 

[MandF]

All aware? Doubtful, but I have been through a very bad episode of shock.

H&S rules inside a government building have no bearing on what you or I do outside that building.

Show me the case law, civil or criminal which demonstrates you can only use an epipen on its prescribed recipient.

Or any other medication which was used in a (perceived) life or death situation.

One single piece of case law.

Thanks.

 

[BBG]

You and others are misunderstanding me, despite my explanations.

Therefore there is no point in continuing.

Let's hope you don't have to save a life.

BOL

 

[rae]

Ref you as a 1st Aider - you are liable if you are negligent.

You, a professional or Joe public has a duty of care.

If you give compression and damage that person's body and that person's heart had not stopped - you are liable for leaving that person in a worst position than when you encountered him/her. YOU can be sued - probably successfully.

The advice you appear to be giving is that whether you are trained or not, the sensible thing to do is to walk away. The liability risk is too great to get involved. Sounds a bit like the PCSO who wouldn't save a drowning child from a pond because he wasn't qualified to do it.

Seems odd that the NHS are sticking adverts on the telly explaining how to do CPR if there is such a problem and risk in doing it.

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

Slightly off topic, but related, a question I have pondered on occasion.

I seem to recall being told that the epipen should be administered via the thigh. Will the needle penetrate jeans+suit or does flesh need to be visible? I'm sure this will be on the instructions, but as I don't own one thought I'd ask the clever folks here.

 

[BeeMoustashe]

Slightly off topic, but related, a question I have pondered on occasion.

I seem to recall being told that the epipen should be administered via the thigh. Will the needle penetrate jeans+suit or does flesh need to be visible? I'm sure this will be on the instructions, but as I don't own one thought I'd ask the clever folks here.

I was told that it will go though clothing, but better if there's less to go though. Suppose that'll depend on the urgency of the situation!

 

[Hebeegeebee]

So, a beekeeper has an Epipen for his own use. Almost certainly prescribed by a GP. Quite possibly in a box with a pharmacy label saying "Mr Smith, Use as directed" or something like that. I don't think these drugs can be bought when you fill up with diesel at a filling station just yet. So we can guess that the thing was prescribed for a reason.

It would be reasonable and sensible for him/her to tell others around that "if stung, please stick this thing into me if I start going faint and this is how it works".


If he forgot to tell anyone that he had it, it's unlikely that anyone would find it in his trouser pocket or the back of his car or whatever. If they did, they might reasonably assume that he had it for a reason and if he's on the floor with a bee sting wasp sting or whatever, then it might be reasonably adminsistered without his express permission. Why would he carry it otherwise?

If someone is carrying an Epipen in case he wants to help someone else, then it's reasonable to assume that he knows how to use it.

The above would cover 99 percent of any eventuality. Otherwise we do have brains; let's just hope we use them when in a stressful situation.

 

[region2]

The advice you appear to be giving is that whether you are trained or not, the sensible thing to do is to walk away. The liability risk is too great to get involved. Sounds a bit like the PCSO who wouldn't save a drowning child from a pond because he wasn't qualified to do it.

Seems odd that the NHS are sticking adverts on the telly explaining how to do CPR if there is such a problem and risk in doing it.

As a First Aider you have no liability if you treat within your capabilities and training. Carry out CPR and you'll be fine, try cracking open someone's chest to massage their heart and you might be up in front of the beak!

Admin - please bar any idiot who suggests that anyone should think twice about helping another individual...

R2

ps. epipen goes through clothes - just make sure their keys/wallest are not in the way!

 

[region2]

Hain't nobody going to be sued if they act in a reasonable and logical manner for the honest held belief thay were doing good for the victim.

I ride a motorcycle. Do not remove a motorcyclist's helmet after a crash because of potential spinal damage. What if I'm not breathing? Can't do CPR with a helmet on. Let me die and safe my spine? Ridiculous. Could I sue you if you injure me? Yes. Would the courts listen? No. That's the difference. We hear alot about people being taken to court, but not about the outcome.

And the judges laughing their arses off that such a case has been brought before them.

Do what you gotta do to stop someone dying, bottom line. Get some nuts.

Hear Hrear!

 

[region2]

Hain't nobody going to be sued if they act in a reasonable and logical manner for the honest held belief thay were doing good for the victim.

I ride a motorcycle. Do not remove a motorcyclist's helmet after a crash because of potential spinal damage. What if I'm not breathing? Can't do CPR with a helmet on. Let me die and safe my spine? Ridiculous. Could I sue you if you injure me? Yes. Would the courts listen? No. That's the difference. We hear alot about people being taken to court, but not about the outcome.

And the judges laughing their arses off that such a case has been brought before them.

Do what you gotta do to stop someone dying, bottom line. Get some nuts.

Hear Hear!

 

[drex]

After 37 years in front line medicine I have treated one case of anaphylactic shock. It does not happen that often, so relax.

That situation was many years ago, when we gave desensitising injections for hay fever. The instructions were to give the jab and observe the patient for another 30 mins ( in case of anaphylaxis). All was fine so I sent them home.

20 minutes later they are literally dragged back in, unconscious. I did not piss about, going through a formal diagnostic procedure or weighing pros and cons of litigation, but stuck them with adrenaline. 10 mins later they were virtually recovered. It is that dramatic.

As I said before, do what you feel you must or are comfortable with in the situation. If you decide to walk away, or pretend you were not there, and can live with your conscience, so be it.

Dr Ex

 

[Hebeegeebee]

I did not piss about.

Dr Ex

Obviously a medical term.

 

[alanf]

As I said before, do what you feel you must or are comfortable with in the situation. If you decide to walk away, or pretend you were not there, and can live with your conscience, so be it.

Outside the UK the assessment of relative risks comes to different conclusions. Last I recall you can buy an epipen over your local pharmacy counter in Canada. No prescription, no training. The pharmacist will have duty to ensure you know what it is but Canadians consider the greater risks are in not having the medication available.