Bailey comb change question

[Jimmys Mum]

Hello,

First time of doing a bailey comb change on 2 of my strong hives (6 & 8 frames bias) and I have a quick question.

A week ago I put a new box of foundation above the old with a feeder above and I'm ready to go in tomorrow to put the queen up top and insert the queen excluder and create a new entrance to the top box.

My question is, ........is it going to be a problem if the bees have already started to fill those newly drawn frames with nectar (or syrup come to that) and there's not much space for HM to lay up there? Should I pop a frame of emerging brood up there? Being relatively new, I don't have any drawn comb to use.

Will the bees just shift it around/use it to draw more comb? I have OSR nearby and another of my hives is happily filling a super.

It may not be an issue but wondered if I need a plan b up my sleeve just in case.

Thanks
JM

 

[curry756]

I doubt they would have drawn and filled the 14x12in one week. But don't count on me - I am a beginner too. I would like to know the outcome of this if possible. I need to do a bailey frame change too this spring.

 

[Jimmys Mum]

Hi Curry,
I just wondered if they would backfill the newly drawn comb as soon as they have finished an area. I'm only expecting to see two or three frames drawn towards the bottoms at this stage. But hey, who knows? I'll let you know tomorrow
JM

 

[Arfermo]

I have only ever done Bailey once and it was a real pain and took ages. Shook swarn gets the comb change over and done with in a fraction of the time. Best left a while until a bit warmer though.

 

[Jimmys Mum]

Thanks Arfermo, I'm beginning to agree and I think that is what I will do with the other colony needing a comb change! Much easier.

So I checked both colonies today a week on. Both had drawn about 4/5 decent frames although some degree of drawn comb was found across 8 frames and the stronger one had started to fill the new space with nectar (or syrup)! This one also had some eggs laid up in the bottoms of the new combs although Queenie was found down below.

Both queens were moved up into the new broodbox on the frame they were found on and I will swap these down again next week.
Queen excluder on.
New entrance cobbled together from 8mm stripwood.
Old entrance closed up.
Ramp leaned up against the front to show them the new way in.

The only fly in the ointment was the discovery of 2 charged queen cells amongst 6-7 play cups. Got to watch this lot!

 

[Swarm]

Yes, be careful. It wouldn't be the first time for a swarm to go, leaving old queenie above the excluder.

 

[itma]

...
The only fly in the ointment was the discovery of 2 charged queen cells amongst 6-7 play cups. Got to watch this lot!

If you are finding truly *charged* QCs, then it is most probable that they have already entered swarm mode.

Knocking down those QCs is extremely unlikely to change their collective mind - if they are set on swarming. .
They will start new QCs, on progressively older larvae (so those cells time to sealing is shorter). And therefore weekly inspections may not be soon enough to beat the attempt to swarm.
My suggestion would be to inspect again in 3 days time. "Watching them" weekly can be too late.

Throwing a lot of drawn comb at a colony (and reducing their stores) might have some small chance of curing the swarm fever. Nothing else, other than an artificial swarm, is likely to change their collective mind. However under-developed the colony might be, it will soon swarm if there is a shortage of drawn comb for Q to lay in.

 

[Jimmys Mum]

Thanks ITMA for the helpful analysis. I couldn't actually see an egg/larvae in the cups but there was a pool of milky royal jelly in both. Assume this is what is meant by charged?

I was planning on having another look on Monday (as I'm away this weekend) and re-assessing the situation then.

Mmmmmm.....Doing an AS midway through a Bailey Comb change is going to make me have to THINK! Presumably one can apply the KISS principle......

Pagden is the method of control I am familar with. Would I just leave the queen (with no other QCs) in the new top box on the current site and treat that as the 'swarm hive' containing the queen and flying bees? And then I assume I break down all but one QC in the old 'parent hive' and move that with all of the young bees to one side and then just proceed as per usual?

Am I on the right lines........please.......

JM

 

[itma]

There's a lot of odd things here, like eggs on the wrong side of the QX.

Where were the QCs?

Have you read (and re-read ) the Welsh QCs download booklet?
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=28463

 

[Jimmys Mum]

There's a lot of odd things here, like eggs on the wrong side of the QX.

Where were the QCs?

Have you read (and re-read ) the Welsh QCs download booklet?
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=28463

I do seem to have a habit of attacting oddities

The queen excluders only went on today between the old box and the new. My understanding for a Bailey Comb change was to put the second brood box full of new foundation on top for about a week first without a QX and to add the QX after a week once new comb had been drawn. The eggs I referred to were seen in the newly drawn comb in the new brood box of the second hive undergoing a comb change - not the one with the charged queen cells! The queenin the second hive has clearly beaten me to it and nipped up to the new box within the last few days and laid a section on the lower edge of one of the combs in the top box. I'm pretty sure it's actually an area of drone brood as this area of cells are much bigger than those around them.

The QCs were on one manky old frame in the old brood box underneath.

And yes, I've read and re-read the Welsh Booklet Used pagden okay last year.

 

[itma]

OK, here's what I'm thinking. (For the charged QC colony)
Inspections every 3 or 4 days.
With Q above QX, she shouldn't be able to get to the entrance and swarm. But, Q slims down for the swarm flight, so she might just get through the QX. (Is she clipped?)
So, they shouldn't be able to depart, even if a QC gets sealed, but no guarantees they won't try, and if she is unclipped and gets out, there is a 'slim' possibility that they might get away.

But if you are inspecting, and removing QCs in the bottom box, they can't start new QCs in the bottom box after there is no *open* brood down there. (And should there be open brood down there after there shouldn't be, then Q is slipping through the QX and ready to go - so you have to do an AS immediately.)

HOWEVER, IF you find QCs being charged in the upper box, that too, I would take as a sign of a colony that is dead set, and accordingly time to give up on the Bailey idea.
As a way out, if you had an Apidea, I'd think of using that to park the old Q while the colony tries to raise another - and I'd strictly limit them to raising just one.

Remind me, is it possible that the old Q is getting a bit old and that her 'cohesive' powers might be failing? That would be one reason for swarm cells appearing in a situation that you wouldn't usually expect them.

 

[masterBK]

itma: Just a small point. If an old queen is slimmed down in prep for swarming it is only the abdomen that gets smaller and doesn't affect the width of her thorax. It is my understanding that it is the rigid thorax of the queen that is too large to go through the slots etc in the excluder.

 

[itma]

Point understood -- BUT -- the standard advice is that putting a QX under the brood box, in a normal situation, cannot be relied upon to prevent swarming, as the skinny swarming Q could possibly get through.
Same here I think.

Certainly, when drones get stuck in a QX, it is their thorax that won't fit. They certainly do have bigger flight muscles than workers.

 

[Swarm]

Point understood -- BUT -- the standard advice is that putting a QX under the brood box, in a normal situation, cannot be relied upon to prevent swarming, as the skinny swarming Q could possibly get through.
Same here I think.

Certainly, when drones get stuck in a QX, it is their thorax that won't fit. They certainly do have bigger flight muscles than workers.

That's just the point, she does not have to leave for the colony to swarm. As masterBK has pointed out, it's the thorax that prevents the queen. There is every possibility that Jimmys Mum might lose a swarm if she misses a cell, which is why I mentioned it in my first reply and it's quite possible next inspection will reveal cells upstairs and down.
At this stage I'd consider splitting and reuniting later.

 

[itma]

That's just the point, she does not have to leave for the colony to swarm. ...

Hang on!
What you have written there simply ain't quite right.

A swarm might have a go at departing, but will not actually disappear off into the distance (they will return to the hive) UNLESS accompanied by a Queen.
This is the whole reason for Q clipping.

Given another week after cell sealing, there would be the risk of virgins departing with swarms, (and passing easily through the QX, potentially battling with the old Q ...) BUT this means missing SEALED QCs for a week after missing the cell previously at the unsealed stage.

 

[Finman]

OK, here's what I'm thinking. (For the charged QC colony)
Inspections every 3 or 4 days. .

That is too often.

Emergency queens start to hatch after 10 days. If you brake queen cells, they make emergency cells or new queen cells. 10 days is back limit. BUT it is common that they have a queen cells in some gap what you did not see.

I look queen cells every 7 days. ...It comes from week ends. It has worked.

I have 3 brood system and no excluder. If the colony is going to swarm, they surely do queen cells into upper brood box and cheking lower brood box is not necessary.

It is better to do a AS at once when you notice queen cells. They do not give up if you only brake queen cells.

Some year 75% out of my hives swarm, but it is not bad thing if you accept it and take it as reality. It is bad if you hope that they give up when they have started it.

.

 

[Finman]

.
Clipping queen

The first swarm tends to leave the hive when first queen cells have been capped. 3 days as egg and 5 days as larva = 8 days.

Clipping the wing gives more time to the beekeeper
When I see that there is any more eggs in the hive, it tells that swarm has tried to leave and the queen is dead somewhere in the lawn.

Next time swarm leaves when new queen emerge. - When - do not count days if you have not checked the hive.

 

[itma]

In this case, half way through moving into a new second box above the first (a Bailey comb change), I think that with the new space (once drawn) they might possibly give up the idea of swarming.

I wouldn't confidently expect them to.
But I think there's a reasonable chance, as the bees should be drawing new comb fairly quickly.

I think that a move to proper Swarm control should be made in two circumstances
- QCs above the excluder (in the new comb, where Q is)
--- or---
- repeated QC building below the excluder more than 6 days after the QX should have prevented Q getting there to lay.


I don't believe that the QX provides a guarantee that is as strong as clipping that a slimmed down Q cannot depart with a swarm.
Accordingly, for a week or two, until things have settled one way or the other, I'm suggesting more frequent inspection - ideally every 3 days.


If the bees are determined to swarm, and so one has to move to swarm control half way through the comb change, then my suggestion is to remove Q to an Apidea (with a cupful of supporters as usual) and allow the main hive to raise one QC to a new Q. Once she is laying worker brood, the early-season insurance of hanging onto the old Q can be dispensed with.
And during that requeening process, I'd have the QX out of the hive.
BUT, I'd hope to avoid all that by giving them enough time to create enough usable comb in the new box, so that they didn't feel com-constrained, and hence swarmy.



This is a tricky problem to give a best answer to.
There are alternatives.
One is to do a 'Pagden' Artificial Swarm with the new box (with old Q) being used for the swarm/fliers, and the old box being used as the Pagden 'brood' colony.
The awkwardness with that method comes when reuniting, as the Q you want to keep (the new one) is busy laying in the wrong (old) box ...

 

[Swarm]

Hang on!
What you have written there simply ain't quite right.

You read it the wrong way.

A swarm might have a go at departing, but will not actually disappear off into the distance (they will return to the hive) UNLESS accompanied by a ...

Virgin.
Easy to miss a queen cell, we've all done it.

 

[itma]

A swarm might have a go at departing, but will not actually disappear off into the distance (they will return to the hive) UNLESS accompanied by a ...

Virgin.
Easy to miss a queen cell, we've all done it.

Just as I said, that can't happen until a week after that QC has been sealed.

Given another week after cell sealing, there would be the risk of virgins departing with swarms

Doing 3-day inspections, you'd have to miss the QC at least 3 times - and if you were seeing other QCs, you'd have gone with some version of an AS.