Are you on brood and a half?

[enrico]

This is just a gentle reminder to beginners on brood and a half or double brood, if you want to move back to a single brood box to give you a bit more kit for artificial swarming etc. now is the time that you should be looking at removing the bottom brood box or super. You should find that the bees have moved up to the top box. You need to remove the bottom box before the queen starts laying although all is not lost if she has started in the bottom box.
On a cold day gently crack the two box' s apart, look in between them and if there are no bees between the box' s then gently and quietly lift the top box clear, if you have help then get your helper to quickly check the bees are not in the bottom box and to remove it, take this opportunity to brush dead bees off the floor, gently replace the top box on to the floor again and you should be all done and dusted!
Others will doubtless give their opinion but this is how I do it.
E

 

[Gilberdyke John]

This is just a gentle reminder to beginners on brood and a half or double brood, if you want to move back to a single brood box to give you a bit more kit for artificial swarming etc. now is the time that you should be looking at removing the bottom brood box or super. You should find that the bees have moved up to the top box. You need to remove the bottom box before the queen starts laying although all is not lost if she has started in the bottom box.
On a cold day gently crack the two box' s apart, look in between them and if there are no bees between the box' s then gently and quietly lift the top box clear, if you have help then get your helper to quickly check the bees are not in the bottom box and to remove it, take this opportunity to brush dead bees off the floor, gently replace the top box on to the floor again and you should be all done and dusted!
Others will doubtless give their opinion but this is how I do it.
E

Dont have to bother as I use 14 x 12 brood

 

[Luminos]

I'm on 14 x 12 too - but thanks, Enrico, for a helpful and timely post.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Dont have to bother as I use 14 x 12 brood

That's what I thought. Had to add a shallow to three of mine. Thanks for the reminder enrico. That's just what I'll do at the end of the month. Three boxes need frame changes this year so that should slow them down a bit.

 

[seaknight]

National vs 14x12, wood vs polystyrene

Hello,

I am a complete beginner who completed a training course 2 years ago but have never kept bees...

I have a wooden National hive set up for brood and a half with Hoffman frames, ready for my first nucleus of bees which are on order, to be introduced this summer.

I want to build up the colony and make a split to get a second hive before winter;

I'm undecided whether to use a second wooden National hive on brood and a half

OR

go for the 14 x 12" polystyrene hive since it would give greater protection against the cold weather when combined with a larger brood size.

Any help would be appreciated, many thanks.

 

[Pete D]

Hi,
Splitting a locally raised summer nuc this year may not be viable as you may just end up with 2 small colonies to over winter. If you are getting an over wintered nuc in the spring it would be much more likely as you can split earlier and give them time to build up.
I started on brood and half but quickly moved to 14 x 12 at the start of the second season. I did this just because I wanted to be on a single box and it's compatible with the rest of my stuff. Don't just do it because you think it will stop swarming urge, it won't. Bees swarm for several reasons, space is just one of them, primarily they swarm to enable survival of bees.
I get on well with my 14x12 but run stds too as I raise nucs and these are more popular (although 14x12 orders are 3 fold std at present), this year my stds will be double brood if they warrant it.
As an aside if I was starting again I would be on poly langs.
Good luck with the nuc.

 

[drstitson]

"to be introduced this summer.

I want to build up the colony and make a split to get a second hive before winter;"


presumably you mean spring? - no point getting a nucleus late anyway and no chance making a split late.

you need to experience best part of a season building up the bees to a full colony. this might only take weeks with a strong colony. or months.

most would get an overwintered nuc in early april. otherwise a newly established nuc in late june/july will need nurturing to get strong and ready for winter.

 

[pargyle]

I got my first bees last season and have overwintered them ... My advice would be forget trying to split your first colony - much better to let them build up and go into next winter with a strong colony.

It's good advice to have two hives as it does give you options but I would suggest that you either get a second nucleus or put out a bait hive to attract a swarm - with a bit of luck you could get a second colony for free.

Like DrS ... you should be looking at getting your Nuc April/May time if possible ... Summer is too late. A Bait hive can go out as soon as the swarming season starts but May/June is peak usually.

Good luck with your first colony .. if there's one thing I've learned in the last 12 months it's patience ... think twice, act once and always consider what the bees are really doing. If in doubt, there's always advice available on here ... usually conflicting !

 

[Edwardking]

Why are people still using Nationals? Everyone should switch to Commercials - adequate brood space, lower risk of swarming, better winter warmth as one box is less drafty than two.

 

[Floyd]

I attempted to do this last week. However after cracking the lower super could see that the hive is very strong with bees running from brood to super over 7 frames. Will definitely need to be aware of this hive for space.

The number of dead bees on the floor at this time compared to previous years is very small. Obviously the very mild winter (hasn't gone below zero and I'm in the Scottish Highlands) has helped.

 

[davnig]

Why are people still using Nationals? Everyone should switch to Commercials - adequate brood space, lower risk of swarming, better winter warmth as one box is less drafty than two.

as is a 14x12

 

[itma]

Hello,

I am a complete beginner who completed a training course 2 years ago but have never kept bees...

I have a wooden National hive set up for brood and a half with Hoffman frames, ready for my first nucleus of bees which are on order, to be introduced this summer.

I want to build up the colony and make a split to get a second hive before winter;

I'm undecided whether to use a second wooden National hive on brood and a half

OR

go for the 14 x 12" polystyrene hive since it would give greater protection against the cold weather when combined with a larger brood size.

Any help would be appreciated, many thanks.

OK, I run 14x12 and am buying more poly, not wood.

However, from where you are, I'd suggest a different alternative option.
Since your target for the year is to take one nuc to two going into winter, I'm going to suggest that you forget (for this year at least) brood and a half.
When your new colony has grown to fill their single brood box, give them a second brood box - "double brood".
That can then be efficiently split to two colonies much much much more simply than a brood and a half can be split.

If you are interested in poly, you could get that second brood box in poly. Paynes, Bee Hive Supplies and CWynneJones all sell poly boxes that can work with standard wooden ones (But only the CWJ one can be used as the top box directly under a wooden roof.) If you are sure you want to go with poly, you could get a poly floor and roof at the same time ... potentially saving you on delivery costs.
The CWJ box takes 10, not 11, standard national brood frames. But that actually makes double brood working much easier, as the box is more than 10% lighter! And CWJ double-brood therefore is kinda like brood and three quarters!

Anyway, no rush until they start to outgrow the first single brood box.

 

[enrico]

OK, I run 14x12 and am buying more poly, not wood.

However, from where you are, I'd suggest a different alternative option.
Since your target for the year is to take one nuc to two going into winter, I'm going to suggest that you forget (for this year at least) brood and a half.
When your new colony has grown to fill their single brood box, give them a second brood box - "double brood".
That can then be efficiently split to two colonies much much much more simply than a brood and a half can be split.

If you are interested in poly, you could get that second brood box in poly. Paynes, Bee Hive Supplies and CWynneJones all sell poly boxes that can work with standard wooden ones (But only the CWJ one can be used as the top box directly under a wooden roof.) If you are sure you want to go with poly, you could get a poly floor and roof at the same time ... potentially saving you on delivery costs.
The CWJ box takes 10, not 11, standard national brood frames. But that actually makes double brood working much easier, as the box is more than 10% lighter! And CWJ double-brood therefore is kinda like brood and three quarters!

Anyway, no rush until they start to outgrow the first single brood box.

Wise and carefully written words which explains everything. That's what I would do too! I just want to add that one hive in your first year can be quite enough. Get used to handling the bees, get used to crying as you third swarm leaves, get used to the sound and feel of the bees, get used to the odd sting, and go into winter with one strong colony rather than two not so strong ones. In your second year you will definitely be set up for two, four in the third etc etc. don't be too eager to double up yet!
E

 

[SwiftOtter]

We have two colonies on brood and half both of which seem to be thriving although I haven't looked inside yet. However, we have the supers above the brood box, so if I removed the lower brood box wouldn't this be a problem? I have got one 14 x 12 and was thinking of doing a shook swarm into it with one colony later on in the year, or maybe a bailey comb change, and perhaps splitting the other one.

 

[enrico]

There is no problem with keeping them on brood and a half, you could always add the 14 x. 12 above them and let them fill it out, no QE, in the autumn remove the box' you don't want any more. you could do a shook swarm, you could split the two present box's when they are strong and put the super below the 14 x 12. There are a lot of possibilities. It depends so much on the state of each colony and what you want out of them this year.
The bees will use any room you give them, they don't care what size the box is! It will just take a bit of juggling!
E

 

[REDWOOD]

as is a 14x12

Some beekeepers don't like the long lugs on the top bars on the 14x12 but they are the same size as a standard BB, It would be a boring world if we where all the same

 

[Apple]

I will have to tell the chap who owns the bees now in our orchard to come over and have a look at his hives, because all three have a big box on the bottom and a small box above it!
As he and his wife have only been keeping bees for thirty or so years, I hope he knows what he is doing.
He said he can split up the bees in the Spring and let us keep some in our empty hives, not too sure how this works, the books seem to say that if there are eggs the bees will make a new queen, then another says to split the hive when it has swarm cells.
Confusing isn't it?

Good news is his land is now drying out.

 

[itma]

... he can split up the bees in the Spring and let us keep some in our empty hives, not too sure how this works, the books seem to say that if there are eggs the bees will make a new queen, then another says to split the hive when it has swarm cells.
Confusing isn't it?

I would STRONGLY urge you to sign up for a beginning beekeeping course of lessons, *BEFORE* you acquire any bees.

Beekeeping is much more complicated than say, chicken-keeping.
Most books fail to draw any distinction between accepted orthodoxy and the author's own personal opinions.

Having a tutor (who is used to teaching the stuff, rather than simply applying it - two VERY different things!) is a pretty much essential shortcut to "getting the big picture" - which, I must say, it would seem that you are currently lacking.
With a single colony of 50,000 flying insects that refuse to do what they are told, things can go very wrong, very quickly. And that isn't the time to start asking about what is happening.

 

[enrico]

I will have to tell the chap who owns the bees now in our orchard to come over and have a look at his hives, because all three have a big box on the bottom and a small box above it!
As he and his wife have only been keeping bees for thirty or so years, I hope he knows what he is doing.
He said he can split up the bees in the Spring and let us keep some in our empty hives, not too sure how this works, the books seem to say that if there are eggs the bees will make a new queen, then another says to split the hive when it has swarm cells.
Confusing isn't it?

Good news is his land is now drying out.

There is no wrong or right way.... Just a preferred way!

 

[BeeFarmer]

I would STRONGLY urge you to sign up for a beginning beekeeping course of lessons, *BEFORE* you acquire any bees.

Reading a book or two is a good idea before attending a course but make sure they're not about American methods since these aren't really practised in the UK. Joining your local association is a good way forward and when things are demonstrated by a trainer they'll sink in a lot easier. Sometimes you'll be plastered with lots of information and will need a week for it all to sink. Associations generally run a system where by students are buddied with experienced beekeepers which can be invaluable at times if only for a bit of reassurance.