Anyone tried or have comments on this..........

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Unfortunately I started as a beekeeper far too late for "trial and error".

I will be dead or incapable of beekeeping within 15 years.. Which is roughly the time needed for meaningful (replicable elsewhere and with statistics) results.
 
Unfortunately I started as a beekeeper far too late for "trial and error".

I will be dead or incapable of beekeeping within 15 years.. Which is roughly the time needed for meaningful (replicable elsewhere and with statistics) results.
However, Mike was one of the people on here whose generosity, comments and advice in my early days of beekeeping influenced the path I trod ... and I share his sentiments that I started beekeeping too late and I regret that I will be unlikely to have enough years left to reach any valid conclusions about ANYTHING in beekeeping.
 
As one of the few (at least one of the few who is prepared to stick his head above the parapet !) treatment free beekeepers on here I have no objection to anyone wishing to follow a treatment free regime - my issue with Hugh's plan is the element of swarming - I still think it is unnecessary and counter productive if the desire is to find strains of bees that are resistant to varroa. Better to keep those bees and grow the stock in a managed but low interference way - measure the success by perfoming sugar rolls on the survivor colonies. Although, in an area that is as remote as he describes, I'm not sure whether this is just an esoteric exercise ... if the area is only populated by feral bees it will be unlikely that any firm conclusions can be drawn. Better, like me, keep bees in an area that has a recognised varroa problem and see how the 'experiment' develops.

I've been treatment free since day 1 of my beekeeping and I haven't lost any significant numbers of colonies over the years and within those few losses I have not been able to identify any that have been the result of varroa or the diseases vectored by the parasite.

My regime has been well documented on here .. Nothing goes into the hive unless the bees bring it in .. they build their own comb without foundation, they are fed, if they need it, with syrup (invertbee) going into winter but they are left with as much of their own honey in the brood box as they choose to store there. They live in highly insulated hives and my inspections are limited to looking for signs of swarming during the critical months of the swarm season and for disease. I sugar roll to check for varroa although, these days, having proved to my satisfaction that signs of infestation can often be a spike and a return to low levels follows, I check less than I used to. Having seen really heavily infested hives, the infestation is usually accompanied by other signs in the colony and from my experience, by that point, it is probably too late. Indeed, those colonies (despite best efforts to treat them) are often those colonies that will fail - or will become infested again - treatment and re-treatment may keep them going but I wonder whether nature should be allowed to take its course. There appears to be a susceptibility to varroa, in some colonies, in some localities. in some circumstances, although the actual reason for their susceptibility is not altogether clear. Whilst ever these bees are treated we are not going to know whether a change in regime could have a beneficial effect on the varroa population in the colony - yes, there is a risk and I recognise that bees are a valuable asset (not a commodity as Hugh would suggest) but ... Darwinian theory suggests that all species evolve in the face of change.

I don't think that feral colonies are any different to untreated managed colonies - some survive some don't, but it's almost impossible to determine why a feral colony survives or doesn't - indeed, the re-use of bee-favoured sites that have been vacated is very common and this may lead to a misconception that there are survivor colonies around when the reality it is re-colonisation by a new colony.

I wish I had been fortunate to have a mentor when I started out that shared my principles .. I found only resistance from other beekeepers and if I was told once that my bees would die I was told a hundred times - occasionally (less frequently now) I am told my bees are 'varroa bombs' and I am a threat to 'responsible beekeepers'. I have always checked for varroa and if I thought a colony was infested to the point where they were beyond the point they could manage the load I would have taken appropriate action. I had very few people to follow (a few on here were a guiding light - often by PM only - and I received some small encouragement at times) - but much of the time it was and remains trial and error. I've read a lot of the 'science' and I regret that most of it is subjective analysis with little or no veracity except, like me, a conviction that bees can survive without being treated for varroa.

My home apiary is in the centre of an area where there are large numbers of beekeepers - some treat, some don't, I live near the centre of town but within bee distance of farmland, allotments, parks, railway bankings and floral planting, there is a wide variety of forage for virtually 10 months of the year in the micro climate we enjoy in this locality. I do sometimes wonder whether this contributes to the success of a no-treatment regime. There are very few real brood breaks in my locaion to naturally curtail the varroa cycle - perhaps just December and January - as I said, we have a fortunate micro climate where there is very little in the way of extreme cold for any length of time.

There are many factors that contribute to bees who manage the varroa mite .. again, nobody really knows what the principal reasons are why some colonies survive with varroa and others fail.

Whether the lack of treatment with varroacides is one of them I don't know but if I treated my bees I would no longer be able to continue to test the various other aspects that may contribute to bees surviving and thriving alongside the varroa mite. In recent years alongside my local mongrels I have bought in native queens from other areas to compare their performance - It's early days but the smaller black bees seem to have lesser varroa loads than those that are derived from wider and much interbred stock - they both survive but the mite load appears to be consistently lower in the small black bees - I hesitate to use the word native because even these bees must have been mongralised at some point.

I welcome the OP's foray into the dark side ... I think, at present, the simplistic path encouraged by some of his readings and viewings may not, altogether, yield the results he appears to hope for. I certainly don't feel that simply releasing bees as swarms to become feral bees has any veracity in any sort of beekeeping.

As always, I would add the caveat - don't follow me along this path unless you are committed to it .. it's a hard ride and it's not just a case of stopping treatment.
Well said, I think its always worth separating the facts from how you feel; a one-on-one chat free of others trite and glib comments also it has its advantages.:)
 
If (and this is what I have gleaned so far in research on the subject), when bees swarm they like to settle down at least 300feet away from their original hive, then I have plenty of places to capture them in swarm traps around the land (there are no mature rotting trees to compeate with my ideal homes!).
So instead of spending a LOT of time preventing swarms, I just collect them................... see where I am going with this?
There is a Belgian beekeeper who really keeps bees . His name is Jan Kuppens. He believes that bees should swarm so he lets them and then recaptures them and life continues. He uses Langstroff hives. He knows from experience when his bees should swarm (plant situation). At this time he then more or less lives in his apiary with his swarm catching material close at hand. He knows from experience which trees around him the bees usually go to. He doesn't like weekly inspections so he watches for the signs of swarming throuth the window in his brood box. The rest of the year he tries to have really good relations with his neighbours in case he misses a swarm. It works for him, but he is a longtime beekeeper. Good luck.
 
There is a Belgian beekeeper who really keeps bees . His name is Jan Kuppens. He believes that bees should swarm so he lets them and then recaptures them and life continues. He uses Langstroff hives. He knows from experience when his bees should swarm (plant situation). At this time he then more or less lives in his apiary with his swarm catching material close at hand. He knows from experience which trees around him the bees usually go to. He doesn't like weekly inspections so he watches for the signs of swarming throuth the window in his brood box. The rest of the year he tries to have really good relations with his neighbours in case he misses a swarm. It works for him, but he is a longtime beekeeper. Good luck.
There are some in the UK that keep their bees like this - Heidi Hermann for one ..but unless you can watch constantly the hives during the swarm season you are likely to miss some .. I think the OP has accepted that this will be the case ... can't say that it's a way I would proceed but each to their own.
 
I would be up for writing a blog, but have heard people get banned here quite a bit and would hate to loose all that effort. As I say, wait 25+ years for the book (I am sure I will give updates though)
 
Basically a separate location/apiary where you can keep them isolated from other bees, so a remote place 3 miles or so from your own & other peoples bees. Observe and note how they develop checking/treating for EFB and AFB, varroa etc etc.
A separate apiary is what, 3 miles distant minimum? It's the distance I cant find info on.
 
I would be up for writing a blog, but have heard people get banned here quite a bit
No they don't.
In the 18 months I have been a moderator I have banned one person for persistently trolling the form and given five people short holidays, one of those flounced off entirely after his membership was reinstated but not before I got a barrage of hate mail. His wingman lurked for a while then disappeared and I'm sure the other two will be back this month. Angie has removed two people's accounts at their request and I don't think JBM has actioned anybody.
Nobody would interfere with your blog and why on earth should you be banned?
A lot of people would be interested.
 
I like reading blogs.

If I violently disagree with them - or think they are pants- I don't read them again.

Please try.. Promise I will not throw stones.:devilish:
 
A separate apiary is what, 3 miles distant minimum? It's the distance I cant find info on.
3 miles from other bees - the supposed maximum foraging, drone congregation area/queen mating distance - put your apiary/beehive location in the middle of a three mile radius from all others = theoretical isolation.

Edit.......New I had read something about distance Long range foraging of the honeybee
 
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There seems to be at least 3 ways to learn:
  1. Trial and error
  2. Seek out peer advice
  3. Scientific study.
  • Despite what you may think, I am trying to avoid trial and error as much as is feasibly possible. My order of preference is 3, 2 1
As has been mentioned before - these are not MY ideas. They are NOT original (in fact some are very old). They may be outside some peoples comfort zone (I won't take a guess on why that may be). If you are not comfortable with it, ignore it, don't stress.

I think this illustrates the issues with scientific study of bees. If it's not published in a peer reviewed journal, then the work is an opinion. Then there are peer reviewed journal and peer reviewed journals. Theories are published to be challenged. Reading 'old' ideas doesn't necessarily make them of no value, although care is needed. The dogma of top ventilation (Wedmore in the 1940's?) is still quoted and used by some, even though most thinking beekeepers in the UK find little value in his approach.
I take my hat off to those who continue to study bees. My head hurts with the number of experimental variables needed to draw statically significant causation rather than just correlation of data.

'In god we trust, all others must bring data' William Deming
 
There seems to be at least 3 ways to learn:
  1. Trial and error
  2. Seek out peer advice
  3. Scientific study.
  • Despite what you may think, I am trying to avoid trial and error as much as is feasibly possible. My order of preference is 3, 2 1
As has been mentioned before - these are not MY ideas. They are NOT original (in fact some are very old). They may be outside some peoples comfort zone (I won't take a guess on why that may be). If you are not comfortable with it, ignore it, don't stress.

I think this illustrates the issues with scientific study of bees. If it's not published in a peer reviewed journal, then the work is an opinion. Then there are peer reviewed journal and peer reviewed journals. Theories are published to be challenged. Reading 'old' ideas doesn't necessarily make them of no value, although care is needed. The dogma of top ventilation (Wedmore in the 1940's?) is still quoted and used by some, even though most thinking beekeepers in the UK find little value in his approach.
I take my hat off to those who continue to study bees. My head hurts with the number of experimental variables needed to draw statically significant causation rather than just correlation of data.

'In god we trust, all others must bring data' William Deming


If you think that reading books will teach you anything about "real" as opposed to "theoretical " beekeeping, I am afraid you are going to be sadly disappointed.

Most of the "how to do it" is best shown rather than read.

And a lot of what is written is country and climate specific
I would trust many US beekeepers to only act as a terrible example on YouTube of how not to do it.

And there is one very vocal UK beekeeper ( edit :not on this forum) who has decades of experience and lots of knowledge of doing things the same way in the same microclimate for decades and who openly scorns change.


Been there, seen it often. Usually ends in tears I am afraid.

( I am not decrying books but often your local bees and climate force different methods. And anyone who dogmatically quotes months or dates when to do things should be totally avoided - except perhaps for OA vaping at Christmas)
 
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As one of the few (at least one of the few who is prepared to stick his head above the parapet !) treatment free beekeepers on here I have no objection to anyone wishing to follow a treatment free regime - my issue with Hugh's plan is the element of swarming - I still think it is unnecessary and counter productive if the desire is to find strains of bees that are resistant to varroa. Better to keep those bees and grow the stock in a managed but low interference way - measure the success by perfoming sugar rolls on the survivor colonies. Although, in an area that is as remote as he describes, I'm not sure whether this is just an esoteric exercise ... if the area is only populated by feral bees it will be unlikely that any firm conclusions can be drawn. Better, like me, keep bees in an area that has a recognised varroa problem and see how the 'experiment' develops.

I've been treatment free since day 1 of my beekeeping and I haven't lost any significant numbers of colonies over the years and within those few losses I have not been able to identify any that have been the result of varroa or the diseases vectored by the parasite.

My regime has been well documented on here .. Nothing goes into the hive unless the bees bring it in .. they build their own comb without foundation, they are fed, if they need it, with syrup (invertbee) going into winter but they are left with as much of their own honey in the brood box as they choose to store there. They live in highly insulated hives and my inspections are limited to looking for signs of swarming during the critical months of the swarm season and for disease. I sugar roll to check for varroa although, these days, having proved to my satisfaction that signs of infestation can often be a spike and a return to low levels follows, I check less than I used to. Having seen really heavily infested hives, the infestation is usually accompanied by other signs in the colony and from my experience, by that point, it is probably too late. Indeed, those colonies (despite best efforts to treat them) are often those colonies that will fail - or will become infested again - treatment and re-treatment may keep them going but I wonder whether nature should be allowed to take its course. There appears to be a susceptibility to varroa, in some colonies, in some localities. in some circumstances, although the actual reason for their susceptibility is not altogether clear. Whilst ever these bees are treated we are not going to know whether a change in regime could have a beneficial effect on the varroa population in the colony - yes, there is a risk and I recognise that bees are a valuable asset (not a commodity as Hugh would suggest) but ... Darwinian theory suggests that all species evolve in the face of change.

I don't think that feral colonies are any different to untreated managed colonies - some survive some don't, but it's almost impossible to determine why a feral colony survives or doesn't - indeed, the re-use of bee-favoured sites that have been vacated is very common and this may lead to a misconception that there are survivor colonies around when the reality it is re-colonisation by a new colony.

I wish I had been fortunate to have a mentor when I started out that shared my principles .. I found only resistance from other beekeepers and if I was told once that my bees would die I was told a hundred times - occasionally (less frequently now) I am told my bees are 'varroa bombs' and I am a threat to 'responsible beekeepers'. I have always checked for varroa and if I thought a colony was infested to the point where they were beyond the point they could manage the load I would have taken appropriate action. I had very few people to follow (a few on here were a guiding light - often by PM only - and I received some small encouragement at times) - but much of the time it was and remains trial and error. I've read a lot of the 'science' and I regret that most of it is subjective analysis with little or no veracity except, like me, a conviction that bees can survive without being treated for varroa.

My home apiary is in the centre of an area where there are large numbers of beekeepers - some treat, some don't, I live near the centre of town but within bee distance of farmland, allotments, parks, railway bankings and floral planting, there is a wide variety of forage for virtually 10 months of the year in the micro climate we enjoy in this locality. I do sometimes wonder whether this contributes to the success of a no-treatment regime. There are very few real brood breaks in my locaion to naturally curtail the varroa cycle - perhaps just December and January - as I said, we have a fortunate micro climate where there is very little in the way of extreme cold for any length of time.

There are many factors that contribute to bees who manage the varroa mite .. again, nobody really knows what the principal reasons are why some colonies survive with varroa and others fail.

Whether the lack of treatment with varroacides is one of them I don't know but if I treated my bees I would no longer be able to continue to test the various other aspects that may contribute to bees surviving and thriving alongside the varroa mite. In recent years alongside my local mongrels I have bought in native queens from other areas to compare their performance - It's early days but the smaller black bees seem to have lesser varroa loads than those that are derived from wider and much interbred stock - they both survive but the mite load appears to be consistently lower in the small black bees - I hesitate to use the word native because even these bees must have been mongralised at some point.

I welcome the OP's foray into the dark side ... I think, at present, the simplistic path encouraged by some of his readings and viewings may not, altogether, yield the results he appears to hope for. I certainly don't feel that simply releasing bees as swarms to become feral bees has any veracity in any sort of beekeeping.

As always, I would add the caveat - don't follow me along this path unless you are committed to it .. it's a hard ride and it's not just a case of stopping treatment.
Thank you Peter (I think it's Peter?). I found that to be a really comprehensive and interesting account of, not just your 'theory' of beekeeping but of your practical experience. Well put together and understandable I thought.
 

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